D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[FrogReaver]

The rules. Dispel Magic can dispel a spell ON an person, object or magical effect, not a magical object like a trap. So you could dispel the light spell cast on a coin, but could not dispel a wand of fireballs. You could dispel the polymorph you got hit with when the trap triggered, if you can cast spells in the new form, but not prior to that.

On careful consideration I think you are correct. Though it does seem dispel magic could work on a magically locked door?

First, there's a good chance it's for one trap, then polymorph leaves if you fail the concentration effect. Second, the rogue has evasion, so that fireball above is doing half to no damage at all to the rogue, and half to full damage to the wizard. Probably full since wizards don't get dex save proficiency and have lowish dex, unlike rogues who have high dex and proficiency. Those same saves avoid most mechanical traps as well. The wizard better have double or more of the rogue's hit points if he wants to make that claim. The rogue will be taking 0 damage a lot while the wizard is taking full, running the wizard down to 0 long before the rogue goes to 0. Plus, there's still the first problem of maintaining concentration.

For all intents and purposes the Wizard isn't alone. He can cast polymorph on any party member to let them run through and trigger traps. There's also the Tasha's summon spells that can be used similarly.

Just out of curiosity, what form is the wizard taking for this exploration trip?

Giant Ape. Large creatures can squeeze into medium spaces.

So what spells do you use to be better than the rogue and at the same time use both defensive magic and offensive magic higher than a cantrip in 6-8 combats?

Great question. Here's what I propose. You pick/create 3-4 encounters and i'll post my full spell list for the level 9 wizard in question along with what spells i would use in those encounters. Then you pick the last 3-4 encounters.

This way neither of us can fully design our choices with the others in mind. Sound fair?

 

[Oofta]

High level arguments aren't really that useful for these discussions. For example, reliable talent is an 11th level rogue ability. Very few campaigns actually go to 11th level, and if they do its only for a short time. 11th level rogues are unicorns. Likewise, we shouldn't be looking at wizards with 6th level spells....5th level and below is where we should spend the bulk of our time judging them for this debate.

Hard to keep track. Teleportation is thrown around as the uber spell regularly. There's no consensus on what level we "should" be talking about.

 

[FrogReaver]

And then you roll initiative when every monster in the area converges on the massive sound of the knock spell.

Maybe, or maybe that loud noise scared them off.

 

[Fanaelialae]

On careful consideration I think you are correct. Though it does seem dispel magic could work on a magically locked door?

If the trap is a magical item, you can't dispel it. IME, a lot of traps are something like a Glyph of Warding, which can be dispelled. It makes sense from a world building perspective that the latter would be a lot more common than the former. Magic items take time and gold to craft, whereas a Glyph of Warding is a single spell slot. The only time magical traps really make sense is if the creators expect not to be around in the future to reset the traps, such as a the tomb of a Pharo that is meant to remain sealed.

 

[Yaarel]

Hard to keep track. Teleportation is thrown around as the uber spell regularly. There's no consensus on what level we "should" be talking about.

Teleportation Circle becomes available as a spell at slot 5.

It is part of a four-level tier, 9-12. At these levels, player characters can create their own teleportation circles. It is similar to owning a small airport.

At lower tiers, 1-4 and 5-8, the bulk of the D&D campaigns wont have personal access to long-range teleportation.

But, I have prominent locations, including major cities have official teleportation circles, functioning akin to airports for travel between cities. Player characters can use these public teleportation circles, but the city schedules the destinations, and the player characters have no control over these circles. In other words, player characters can easily get from one city to an other city, but cant easily get to specific locations elsewhere.



Generally speaking, the 9-12 tier comprises the local government and the elite economically and-or magically. While this tier is beyond the level of most player characters, player characters do encounter NPCs corresponding to this tier.

 

[Maxperson]

But you are through the door (and if not then those monsters where damn close in the first place)... its a choice that the non-caster rogue does not have. *its versatility

And if there are monsters behind the door you now have monsters attacking you from both directions, or you are running blindly forwards with monsters chasing behind. And probably more monsters than the party can handle since the noise is likely to bring multiple encounters at once.

 

[Maxperson]

On careful consideration I think you are correct. Though it does seem dispel magic could work on a magically locked door?

Depends on how it was magically locked. If it's a simple Arcane Lock spell, then yes of course it would work. The spell literally says it lasts until dispelled On the other hand if it's locked via say a magic item or some other non-spell magical way, then it wouldn't. I would think that the vast majority of the time, though, it will be Arcane Lock and dispel would work.

For all intents and purposes the Wizard isn't alone. He can cast polymorph on any party member to let them run through and trigger traps. There's also the Tasha's summon spells that can be used similarly.

That's true, but also using up precious slots and with time limits. The summon spells last an hour and with exploration, they are likely to be used up before you get too far. The rogue is better off searching for that hour and leaving the summons for combat.

Giant Ape. Large creatures can squeeze into medium spaces.

Sure, but you aren't saving against effects well if you're squeezing. I'd impose disadvantage on dex saves since you can't move well.

Great question. Here's what I propose. You pick/create 3-4 encounters and i'll post my full spell list for the level 9 wizard in question along with what spells i would use in those encounters. Then you pick the last 3-4 encounters.

This way neither of us can fully design our choices with the others in mind. Sound fair?

Sure. I'm just going to come up with the encounters as creatures, though. It's too much work to set it up with terrain, items, etc. So if it was fire giants, I'd just say something like encounter #1: 2 fire giants.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Actually, the wizard is awesome at the social pillar. The error is thinking the social pillar is spamming Cha(Pers) and Cha(Decep) checks.

Lots of Int(His), Int(Rel) and Int(Arcana) to understand what people are talking about and ask the right questions. Lots of Int(investigation and Wis(Insight) checks to read people. Wizards are great of these, since a lot of them are Int based and many wizards also have good Wis.

Of course, let’s not ignore the other part of the social pillar: actually being able to communicate. The 18 Cha Rogue isn’t going to face very effectively if he doesn’t speak Giant. Tongues and Comprehend languages definitely give wizards a boost here.

Can other spells give wizards a boost in the social pillar? Prestidigitation is a good way to impress commoners. Detect thoughts is pretty good also, and doesn’t require a saving throw for surface thoughts.

Sure, the Rogue can have high Cha and expertise, but how often is information in the social pillar gated behind a DC 18 Cha roll? It seems to me that something like DC 13 or 14 is a lot more common, which is readily available with proficiency.


The most useful social-based spell is Enhance Ability, and it does mot have the mind control stigma. In a high level game, it is my choice for the “unlimited cast” wizard spell.

So, I like this answer, has some really good points. Other skills can be pretty useful in the social sphere. The knowledge skills are the big ones, and where wizards can definitely excel. That said, they are not particularly wizard exclusive, although the wizard's focus on intelligence means they are likely better than most at them. History seems the most pertinent, followed by Religion. Arcana seems more like a niche when dealing with specific individuals. Investigation I usually file under more of the exploration tier personally. Insight is of course useful, but I don't see the wizard having a high wisdom as any more likely than any other non-divine caster.

Tongues is a great spell that I actually forgot about, and is a good point for the wizard. While it's not exclusive to the class, it's a niche spell which spells known casters might decide to cut for more commonly used spells. So the Wizard and the Cleric I think are more likely to have the spell in comparison.

Detect Thoughts is good, but unless you grabbed Telepathic it still has the problem of being obviously cast. The situations where Detect Thoughts is useful are often ones where the people you are talking to are likely not going to be happy with you casting spells in the discussion. The Prestidigitation idea is a pretty good one.

Expertise is still pretty useful. First, it can help mitigate a low roll on those DC 13 checks. Secondly, social rolls are ones that I can see often times being contested, and at that point you are looking for numerical advantage. Sadly, real life often backs this up, where the person who wins a debate is not always the one with the best facts but the best delivery.

Enhance Ability is something I meant to mention and forgot to put in my original post. Wizards picking it up in Tasha's variants was a huge win in that regard, because as you said, it's probably the best social boosting spell in the game besides possibly Glibness.

 

[Stalker0]

Hard to keep track. Teleportation is thrown around as the uber spell regularly. There's no consensus on what level we "should" be talking about.

Based on various playtest surveys, the bulk of gaming seems to happen in the 3-8 level mark, with "reasonable" amounts of gaming happening in the 1-2 and 9-10 level marks.

Outside of 10th level the amount of time people spends at a level seems to taper off quite a bit. 11-12th levels do see some play but more as a "last adventure in the campaign" kind of thing.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Based on various playtest surveys, the bulk of gaming seems to happen in the 3-8 level mark, with "reasonable" amounts of gaming happening in the 1-2 and 9-10 level marks.

Outside of 10th level the amount of time people spends at a level seems to taper off quite a bit. 11-12th levels do see some play but more as a "last adventure in the campaign" kind of thing.

I think most people in this thread would agree that the issue is nowhere near as dramatic at lower levels.

However, speaking on behalf of those who do regularly play campaigns that approach 20th level, it would be nice if the fighter managed to maintain reasonable effectiveness alongside the wizard.

Even if you, yourself, never touch those levels. I don't find the idea that it's okay for high levels not to work well because not many people go to those levels, to be an especially compelling argument. Most people don't take their car over 70 MPH but people would be quite upset, I think, if they did accelerate past 70 and the engines consistently dropped out.