D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Actually, the wizard is awesome at the social pillar. The error is thinking the social pillar is spamming Cha(Pers) and Cha(Decep) checks.

Lots of Int(His), Int(Rel) and Int(Arcana) to understand what people are talking about and ask the right questions. Lots of Int(investigation and Wis(Insight) checks to read people. Wizards are great of these, since a lot of them are Int based and many wizards also have good Wis.

Of course, let’s not ignore the other part of the social pillar: actually being able to communicate. The 18 Cha Rogue isn’t going to face very effectively if he doesn’t speak Giant. Tongues and Comprehend languages definitely give wizards a boost here.

Can other spells give wizards a boost in the social pillar? Prestidigitation is a good way to impress commoners. Detect thoughts is pretty good also, and doesn’t require a saving throw for surface thoughts.

I think this is key to some of the disconnect. Wizards are ok to great at exactly replicating the way other classes can contribute to goals (melee damage per the 8 attacks per round point, high cha (per) checks, etc.) but they ALSO can contribute meaningfully to those goals in other ways and are often better off doing so.

Winning combat is the goal. Doing the most damage is a potential means of contributing.

Getting the King to declare war on X is the goal. Beating Cha(per) is a potential means.

A Wizard could research that the King is still blaming himself for not acting on his wife's advice leading to her death. The Wizard creates an illusion of his dead wife telling him to declare war.

The more and more flexible resources you get, the more and more ways you can contibute to goals.

 

[Oofta]

Teleportation Circle becomes available as a spell at slot 5.

It is part of a four-level tier, 9-12. At these levels, player characters can create their own teleportation circles. It is similar to owning a small airport.

At lower tiers, 1-4 and 5-8, the bulk of the D&D campaigns wont have personal access to long-range teleportation.

But, I have prominent locations, including major cities have official teleportation circles, functioning akin to airports for travel between cities. Player characters can use these public teleportation circles, but the city schedules the destinations, and the player characters have no control over these circles. In other words, player characters can easily get from one city to an other city, but cant easily get to specific locations elsewhere.



Generally speaking, the 9-12 tier comprises the local government and the elite economically and-or magically. While this tier is beyond the level of most player characters, player characters do encounter NPCs corresponding to this tier.

The spell takes 10 minutes to cast and you need the target's sigil. It's not automatic in my campaigns, nobody is going to hand out the keys to the kingdom for whoever asks.

But this is just one of those things about how awesome the Wizards when it's really just fluff. If the spell didn't exist, very little would substantially change.

The DM is always deciding the fiction. If you need to get from A to B and it's important to the campaign you will be able to get from A to B. Teleportation Circle is practically a spell tax that ultimately changes nothing other than making the wizard feel important.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Where do you see disadvantage/advantage? I can't find anything that says creatures have disadvantage on anything other than attack rolls. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see it.

They do have to rely on something other than sight, many creatures do.

But many, many more creatures rely only on sight.

This is the fallacy of “the perfect is the enemy of the good”. Some creatures could detect an invisible wizard, so an 11th level wizard being able to cast invisibility 4 times per day for 1 hour each time isn’t overpowered.

Some creatures may make their saves, so disabling 5 creatures with Hypnotic Pattern (which doesn’t allow subsequent saves) isn’t overpowered. Even if this remains a valid tactic even at high levels.

Some enemies may shoot owls on sight, so having an owl familiar scout out the cave complex isn’t overpowered.

This reasoning fails because very often, it ignores that the wizard has agency and will often modify their tactics depending on the situation. And, that due to a high number of spells prepared, and a tendency to have great lore skills, wizards are really good at this.

No, a wizard won’t hypnotic pattern an ooze with no eyes. Web will probably be used against opponents that don’t look super agile.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Seems that favours wizards over other classes. It takes one action for the wizard to cast mage armor. Meanwhile, the dwarf fighter is spending the combat at 9 AC.

Unless they listed some other houserules, there is nothing in the 5e rules that prevents people from sleeping in full heavy armor, with a shield strapped to their arm. Xanathar has an optional rule about not recovering fatigue levels and getting half the usual hitdice back, but that's all.

 

[Oofta]

Maybe more people would play high level D&D if power disparities weren’t so great at high levels? Also, if you actually want to play high level D&D seems a bit harsh to say “sorry, it’s not balanced, and we won’t fix it because not enough people play it”.

I doubt that plays into it much. In 3.x it absolutely did, I just don't see that big a difference in 5.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The DM is always deciding the fiction. If you need to get from A to B and it's important to the campaign you will be able to get from A to B. Teleportation Circle is practically a spell tax that ultimately changes nothing other than making the wizard feel important.

That's true in some campaigns. Not in others.

In a traditional sandbox campaign it would be more typical that the evil cult will bring about a cataclysm on day X.

If the PCs learn of the cataclysm in time, they can try to stop it.

If they don't find out about it, the cataclysm happens.

And if they learn about the cult on day X-1, they had better have some means of traveling to the cult very quickly, if they want to have any hope of stopping the cataclysm.

 

[Oofta]

That's true in some campaigns. Not in others.

In a traditional sandbox campaign it would be more typical that the evil cult will bring about a cataclysm on day X.

If the PCs learn of the cataclysm in time, they can try to stop it.

If they don't find out about it, the cataclysm happens.

And if they learn about the cult on day X-1, they had better have some means of traveling to the cult very quickly, if they want to have any hope of stopping the cataclysm.

A DM that sets up scenarios you can't possibly stop will not be a DM for long.

 

[Fanaelialae]

A DM that sets up scenarios you can't possibly stop will not be a DM for long.

That's nonsense. This is not a scenario that you cannot stop. This is a scenario that you can stop, assuming you find out about it in time. And part of "in time" factors in your choices, like whether or not you chose teleport. It makes for meaningful choices.

 

[Oofta]

That's nonsense. This is not a scenario that you cannot stop. This is a scenario that you can stop, assuming you find out about it in time. And part of "in time" factors in your choices, like whether or not you chose teleport. It makes for meaningful choices.

Not if the spell didn't exist which was my premise. It's also impossible if no one can cast it or no one has the address.

if the spell is not available, the scenario won't come up if the DM wants to retain players. It's basically a spell tax that is occasionally useful as a shortcut or as a narrative device.

 

[Stalker0]

Not if the spell didn't exist which was my premise. It's also impossible if no one can cast it or no one has the address.

if the spell is not available, the scenario won't come up if the DM wants to retain players. It's basically a spell tax that is occasionally useful as a shortcut or as a narrative device.

Well this is the crux. There is a big difference between "our wizard doesn't have teleport circle, we are screwed" and "no one has the teleport circle address, we are screwed".

If the wizard has the spell, great they cut some time, go to the action, wizard feels great. If they don't, but manage to bargain with an old rival of theirs for the spell and address (possibly having to make a great sacrifice in teh process), cool....neat roleplay moment.

So you can have scenarios where a party is able to overcome a challenge that requires magic without having magic...but at the same time showcase the notion that "man it would have been great to have that spell".