D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[James Gasik]

Yeah, selecting saving throws is never as easy as you'd like it to be. Especially in 5e, when monsters can have more than 2 proficient saves, and you never know when you're going to run into some weird resistance, immunity, or advantage on saving throws.

But having suffered under a bad DM for years who would almost always make saving throws, lol, I have a tendency to avoid single target spells that allow saving throws, and prefer spells that will invoke multiple saving throws over the course of it's existence (sleet storm is a personal favorite), buffs, or spells that don't have saving throws at all, hedging my bets as much as possible.

 

[Garthanos]

But having suffered under a bad DM for years who would almost always make saving throws, lol, I have a tendency to avoid single target spells that allow saving throws, and prefer spells that will invoke multiple saving throws over the course of it's existence (sleet storm is a personal favorite), buffs, or spells that don't have saving throws at all, hedging my bets as much as possible.

Of course a fighter has no such option with attacks... and no ability to find a rock paper scissors opening

 

[James Gasik]

Of course a fighter has no such option with attacks... and no ability to find a rock paper scissors opening

Well, no, but I mean, it's not super hard to hit AC. And even the worst DM has a hard time saying your natural 20 missed, lol (whether or not your damage matters is a different concern).

And Fighters sometimes have to worry about saving throws too, like Battlemasters.

But back to Wizards, I basically gave up on damage options pretty quick. Upcasting is generally a sucker's bet, and despite the complaints that it doesn't follow the DMG guidelines, Fireball still probably doesn't do enough damage to really keep up with monster hit points. I mean, when you're level 5, the average of 8d6 is only what, 28? Wow, enough to kill a CR 1 Bugbear (if it fails it's save).

 

[Bill Zebub]

Of course a fighter has no such option with attacks... and no ability to find a rock paper scissors opening

They don’t need it. Every monster is a pair of scissors, and the fighter is a rock.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I don't think this works well. A lot of Brutes have good Wisdom saves and Constitution is unpredicatable and is typically a "bad" target for a save. For example a Lich seems pretty "frail", but is sporting a +10 con save.

The other problem with con is it is going to be a strong save for most enemies and there is a cost to preparing it.

Strength and Intelligence are more predictable, but there are not a lot of good int save spells and although strength is also predictable, like con there are a lot of enemies good at strength saves.



I've seen them get it completely wrong too. Unless they are beasts and you are targeting intelligence there is a high chance you get it wrong.

Heck I am playing in a campaign where I have targeted a bunch of Drow temple guards with strength saves (I mean they are Elves right?) and they keep saving. Turns out they have at least a +8 since one of them beat my DC 15 telekentic shove with a 7.

You fight a lot of liches in every campaign, do you?

In any case, you don't target any save on a lich if you have the option. Unless you didn't prepare it, you use counterspell.

Sure, you'll get it wrong on occasion. I never claimed it would be perfect intuition. But with a modicum of common sense you can get it right at least 9 times out of 10.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But back to Wizards, I basically gave up on damage options pretty quick. Upcasting is generally a sucker's bet, and despite the complaints that it doesn't follow the DMG guidelines, Fireball still probably doesn't do enough damage to really keep up with monster hit points. I mean, when you're level 5, the average of 8d6 is only what, 28? Wow, enough to kill a CR 1 Bugbear (if it fails it's save).

Fireball, strange as it sounds, I count as a utility spell. When a big AoE damage spell is what you want (and thanks to bounded accuracy low level monsters still hurt) it's perfect. It's not a mainline spell, just one that's situationally great.

 

[Garthanos]

But back to Wizards, I basically gave up on damage options pretty quick. Upcasting is generally a sucker's bet, and despite the complaints that it doesn't follow the DMG guidelines, Fireball still probably doesn't do enough damage to really keep up with monster hit points. I mean, when you're level 5, the average of 8d6 is only what, 28? Wow, enough to kill a CR 1 Bugbear (if it fails it's save).

One of the criticisms of Level Up I have heard is they worried too much about damage capacity when they were making balance adjustments and didnt pay attention to how overwhelming the control spells were.

 

[James Gasik]

One of the criticisms of Level Up I have heard is they worried too much about damage capacity when they were making balance adjustments and didnt pay attention to how overwhelming the control spells were.

Honestly, most people who play Wizards seem to like blasting and don't value control spells very much, at least that's been my experience. Which is why I never understood why blasting isn't better, and why so many DM's seem to dislike it when it's good- it's a tactic that synergizes with what the rest of the party is doing, after all.

I personally find orthogonal options to make combats easier more annoying as a DM, lol. "Great, so, now my Trolls can't even reach anyone to attack on their turn. Couldn't you just cast Firebolt or something and let me murder the Fighter?"

Wizard PC: "Haha, no, that would burn my Web spell!"

 

[Mort]

One of the criticisms of Level Up I have heard is they worried too much about damage capacity when they were making balance adjustments and didnt pay attention to how overwhelming the control spells were.

Control spells have ALWAYS been the true strength of the wizard.

It was so explicit in 4e as to not even merit discussion (it was the clearly intended design).

In 3e when the wizard acted as a controller, fights just simply went easier.

And in 5e? The focus always seems to be on fireball. Sure, it's flashy and does decent damage. But, really, it's a great mook clearer - mopping up monsters the group could likely have handled anyway. Hypnotic Pattern - now that's big. It will take a fight that's well above the groups paygrade and turn it into a winnable fight. As levels get higher, the wall spells beat cone of cold any day of the week, when used effectively.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But with a modicum of common sense you can get it right at least 9 times out of 10.

That wild claim makes me want to DM for you.