D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Dausuul]

Pop quiz: it's Jubilex! Quick, what ability score should you target? (We'll ignore his her its advantage on saving throws, and legendary resistance...)

A giant seething mass of demonic ooze? I'll target Dexterity, that's usually a winner against stuff like that.

looks up stats for Juiblex

I correctly picked Juiblex's lowest stat, but it has proficiency in Dex saves for some reason, giving it +7. Its weakest save is Cha at +3 (followed by Int +5, and then Str/Dex tied at +7). On the other hand, I successfully avoided its +13 Con and +12 Wis saves.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And that ignores the fact that you have to both know the monster's weaknesses* and have the right spells prepared, and even then there's a decent chance that it's still easier for the fighter to hit.

And even after all that, there's the statistics of many attacks vs. fewer. The Wizard is just gonna whiff more often than the fighter.

*That, in turn, can depend both on how well the player knows the monster manual, and how closely the DM adheres to hit. When fighting high CR opponents it's quite possible you're going to be facing exotic, extra-planar beings you know nothing about.

Pop quiz: it's Jubilex! Quick, what ability score should you target? (We'll ignore his her its advantage on saving throws, and legendary resistance...)

It's pretty easy to guess the weak saves of many monsters. Big dumb brute? Target the mental stats. Slow monster? Target dexterity. Small? Strength is a good guess (often also Constitution). Frail? Definitely Constitution (and also possibily Strength).

I mean, come on! You're reaching so far that I'm astonished you're not being rushed to the hospital for multiple dislocations! I have literally seen complete newbies make accurate guesses about this, unaided, on numerous occasions. You're acting like it's rocket science when in fact a five year old can figure it out.

Wrt to Jubilex, I admit that I don't know. How often do you fight Jubilex in your campaigns? Less than once a campaign? I don't think I've ever fought Jubilex, despite playing D&D for over thirty years!

You seem to be forgetting that many of the wizard's spells are AoEs. Meaning they target multiples. Sure, one or two creatures might make their save, but those are the ones the janitor... Ahem... Sorry about that, fighter, cleans up.

 

[Mort]

Isn't the thumb on the scale if only spells can overcome an obstacle?

It's not a question of "only" spells overcoming obstacles.

It's the simple fact that fighters, outside of combat, come equipped with a hammer at best (well in combat too, it's just that it's a pretty good hammer in combat and is usually suffiecient).

Wizards have access to an entire toolbox.

The DM has to thumb the scale HARD just to compensate.

 

[Bill Zebub]

So this would be in the thumbs on the scale section?

I mean, I guess so. You’ve got to design encounters, and I can’t imagine doing it without considering the group. So…if you want to call that ‘thumb on the scale”, sure. Why not?

EDIT: How about choosing a magic item based on the party wants/needs, instead of rolling on random treasure tables? Is that "putting your thumb on the scale", or is it just....DMing?

 

[ECMO3]

I think the one you missed is the one I started with: that a good chunk of Wizard effectiveness (in combat) depends on targets failing saving throws, and for a long list of reasons that generally happens less often than fighters miss their attacks.

I think an attack is generally more reliable than a save spell. Fighters might miss more total, because they make a lot more attacks than wizards throw save spells, but I think attacks hit a larger percentage of the time than enemies fail saves.

Now Wizards can have the ability to target specific saves, but on the other hand a lot of enemies have immunities to the conditions or legendary actions.

 

[Mort]

It's pretty easy to guess the weak saves of many monsters. Big dumb brute? Target the mental stats. Slow monster? Target dexterity. Small? Strength is a good guess (often also Constitution). Frail? Definitely Constitution (and also possibily Strength).

I mean, come on! You're reaching so far that I'm astonished you're not being rushed to the hospital for multiple dislocations! I have literally seen complete newbies make accurate guesses about this, unaided, on numerous occasions. You're acting like it's rocket science when in fact a five year old can figure it out.

Wrt to Jubilex, I admit that I don't know. How often do you fight Jubilex in your campaigns? Less than once a campaign? I don't think I've ever fought Jubilex, despite playing D&D for over thirty years!

You seem to be forgetting that many of the wizard's spells are AoEs. Meaning they target multiples. Sure, one or two creatures might make their save, but those are the ones the janitor... Ahem... Sorry about that, fighter, cleans up.

And let's not forget, if the wizard, really, is in a position where he doesn't know what spell will affect the baddie - or worse knows none of his will be effective?

He can always buff the party. Haste can be a game changer, for example. Or let's say the DM is stingy with magic weapons but throws a lycanthrope at the party, which somehow forgot to buy silvered weapons. The wizard can fix that - magic weapon.

As a matter of fact, direct damage is often the WORST of the wizards options. The better options almost always involve control (spells like web, wall spells) and buffs (Haste etc.).

 

[ECMO3]

Pop quiz: it's Jubilex! Quick, what ability score should you target? (We'll ignore his her its advantage on saving throws, and legendary resistance...)

I don't know, but I will say this - we managed to stick a Psychic Lance on Jubilix after he ran out of legendaries, HOWEVER we used three Silvery Barbs spells to stick it (so he rolled 4 times and made the first 3 saves).

Given that I would say his intelligence save may be high but it is doable.

In any case I think against enemies with legendaries the best bet is to either melee them, blast them or summon allies and whittle them down. Unless your Monk manages to run him out of resistances it is best not to even try that route.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I mean, I guess so. You’ve got to design encounters, and I can’t imagine doing it without considering the group. So…if you want to call that ‘thumb on the scale”, sure. Why not?

Yeah. Not quite at making value judgments one way or the other. (Obviously i have an opinion). Trying to get a sense of how much balance arguments are dependent on GM headroom.

I understand that there will always be some amount there just by the nature of the game.

 

[ECMO3]

It's pretty easy to guess the weak saves of many monsters. Big dumb brute? Target the mental stats. Slow monster? Target dexterity. Small? Strength is a good guess (often also Constitution). Frail? Definitely Constitution (and also possibily Strength).

I don't think this works well. A lot of Brutes have good Wisdom saves and Constitution is unpredicatable and is typically a "bad" target for a save. For example a Lich seems pretty "frail", but is sporting a +10 con save.

The other problem with con is it is going to be a strong save for most enemies and there is a cost to preparing it.

Strength and Intelligence are more predictable, but there are not a lot of good int save spells and although strength is also predictable, like con there are a lot of enemies good at strength saves.

I mean, come on! You're reaching so far that I'm astonished you're not being rushed to the hospital for multiple dislocations! I have literally seen complete newbies make accurate guesses about this, unaided, on numerous occasions.

I've seen them get it completely wrong too. Unless they are beasts and you are targeting intelligence there is a high chance you get it wrong.

Heck I am playing in a campaign where I have targeted a bunch of Drow temple guards with strength saves (I mean they are Elves right?) and they keep saving. Turns out they have at least a +8 since one of them beat my DC 15 telekentic shove with a 7.

 

[Garthanos]

There are 5e epic levels. The DMs Guide has each level get an epic feat, namely a "boon".

Well the description of the tier before that includes transformative events like a druid becoming a force of nature I really think that is the epic in question not that underfed/underflavored over 20 bit. (don't remember the exact wording but Its nearly identical story wise to 4e's epic tier where in one example the primal classed character does exactly that.) .Where are the tools for that those boons seem a Johnny come lately. I would say the non-casters do not actually have anything to lead up to that (as mentioned no WoW factors), at minimum in mid paragon the 4e character will be exceeding "natural" human ability; possibly in 2 attributes ... In other epic destinies they realise they are a demigod in still others a fated ruler of a kingdom etc. But its generally a gradual event with things building up to that