Are you excited about the Forgotten Realms setting changes?

[Filcher]

I quit playing in the Realms setting after the changes from the Time of Troubles.

Reading about the Time of Troubles 2.0 just makes me feel bad for the people who decided to give them another chance after that mess.

I'm in the same camp. Gray box Realms for me. DMs shouldn't feel intimidated by "canon." It's a game, and if a player has a problem with non-canon material ("Elminster never would have done that!"), well, I'll be happy to play in whatever game they want to run.

All that said, it does seem that an easier entry point could have been created without wiping clean 3 editions of Realmslore.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(humor)

Yeah, trying to add some humor. We need humor and laughter. Especially here.

Consider something. It's 10 years til the Spellplague. Then decades of that. Then many decades more before 1472 (or whenever 4E starts.)
So, let's say your DM starts you playing in 1372, and your characters have to adventure *in regular game time* through all the trouble, the Twilight War, the Spellplague, and so on, until they reach 1472 and the 4E Realms.

By the time you and your group have done this, I'm guessing that ... what ... 10th Edition will be ready for playtesting?
And you will have gone through about every variant of FR ever known, and then some, as FR changes through a 100 year period. That's a lot of adventuring we are talking about. 100 years of hard adventuring!!!

You and your friends just might die of old age, before you ever reach 4E.

 

[Hussar]

I'm in the same camp. Gray box Realms for me. DMs shouldn't feel intimidated by "canon." It's a game, and if a player has a problem with non-canon material ("Elminster never would have done that!"), well, I'll be happy to play in whatever game they want to run.

All that said, it does seem that an easier entry point could have been created without wiping clean 3 editions of Realmslore.

How? How can you make it easier to enter the Realms while retaining twentyish years of canon?

Edena - lol

 

[Najo]

And your mistake is assuming that all 100% of that 35.37% were planning to stick with FR into 4E. How many of them liked FR, but were slowly drifting on to something else? How many like the new FR enough that they won't look at 3rd party settings, when earlier they might have?

True, there is many variables to consider. True that this survey is not an exact science. But no surveys are, though some are more or less bias. For our purposes this gives a rough idea, and overall the exact make up of the 35.37% doesn't matter because the percentage is constant between the two comparrisons I made. The end result is line 2 when compared with the lines of fans leaving is smaller, and therefore overall general consensus at this time, on enworld, in this forum, is that more fans are leaving then they are gaining.

This doesn't even account for the people who say they don't like it, but may be won over in the future when their disappointment fades and they see what it has to offer.

You can't cover every possiblity, and you do your best to keep it as accurate as possible.

No, the only thing that this poll shows is that Mark Twain was entirely correct about statistics, and that people on both sides will continue to see what they want to see.

I suppose you can look at that this way. Personally I want WOTC to suceed with FR 4e and was hoping it would not be the case. I have professional interests in the success of these products, I believe in WOTC's professional talents and I overall think 4e is going to be good.

It would be counter productive to my own interests to "see what I want to see". I have a great deal of respect for your work and I know you are normally very open minded and fair on these boards. With that I am surprised of your statement towards the polls results and my intentions. I take great care to keep my polls as accurate as I can. I am interested in the demographics and group interests of our community here and I think these polls when used constructively show broad but accurate pictures of exactly that.

Any rate, I wish you well and no hard feelings. Peace.

 

[Najo]

The FR spirit is one of the most subjective things I can think of, as the FR is a setting that has gone through many phases, been influenced by many many authors, and been "spun" in several different ways. However well WotC did, if they actually made changes, they would be accused of "failing to keep the FR spirit", because for someone, somewhere (on Candlekeep) the FR spirit was all about sexiness in Silverymoon, and Silverymoon being hit by a comet (I can dream!) has broken the FR completely and oh god he can't play it any more. I mean, clearly for me, the FR had already lost the "FR spirit", had it not? From my entirely subjective perspective, definately, it lost it at the end of 2E and continued that path in 3E, only with megatons (like, more than I'd ever seen) more PC/NPC-oriented crunch.

In your original post, you missed qouted me and added your own typing to my statement. I wanted to clarify that as it makes your post confusing. If you can please correct it.

Of course spirit could be subjective. The way I am using the term is to define the IP's feel and the elements that are popular to long term fans. The fans majority spoke well of the 3/3.5 product line. Most people are impressed with the campaign setting book. The previews before were not reacted to with such a negative response nor was Ed Greenwood publicly showing dislike. Ed Greenwood himself has stated about the 4e FR he is not happy about the changes. These things are what I am referring to, not some personal idea of what I like or don't like about the realms. Personally I am a Dark Sun kinda guy, not a Realms one.

That's lovely talk, but I see nothing in your posts genuinely about "understanding the market as a whole", and a lot based from various specialist forums on the internet. You seem to assuming that, from these specialist forums, you're getting a better picture of the market than WotC did.

That seems a little... um, I dunno, dodgy to me.

Let's not turn this into an attack on my character. You know nothing about me or my research or professional involement within the industry. So please do not be so condemning. I am not looking to have a personal conflict with you.

Also, why are you "listening" to "extreme" fans? They're the least useful source of opinion on any kind of financial or "market as a whole" deal. You go on and on about how "in some people's mind it isn't good", but I've not seen a word from you about how in many people's, it is!

You twisted my words. I said that some of the dedicated fans are being extreme. I didn't say I was listening to all of them. My comment was that the hardcore Realms fan base seems to be back lashing to the 4e changes. As of this writing, the uphappy fans are now nearly equal to the ones who are going to stay interested. That is a near 50% loss of current market with the new edition if nothing changes. The question is why are those 50% of the market not happy? I fully understand that the verbal minority can skew results. That is why the poll is more accurate then the forum responses.

Forgotten Realms campaign setting sold roughly 40,000 copies into the market place through non-wotc hobby distributors within the first year of release. It can be estimated that WOTC sold roughly the same amount up to twice that amount. I do not have WOTC's exact sales numbers, but I do study the releases of direct sales from non-wotc and wotc distribution and that is a safe estimate. This means in a year, Forgotten Realms 3.0 sold 100,000 copies. In that same time, the player's handbook sold 250000 copies through distributors, it sold 2-3 times that amount through direct. That is 500,000 to 750,000 3.0 PHB upon first year sales. With these numbers you can get a rough market count of the Forgotten Realms customer base and what that percentage is compared to the D&D market as a whole. It should be noted that mass-market distribution (Borders, Amazon) is not included in these numbers.

Now those numbers are not entirely accurate because 1) The FRCS was new and many people bought it and then bought nothing else or weren't FR fans 2) The change over at 3.5 lost some fans 3) DMs usually buy campaign settings, so we don't know the size of the fan base solely on these numbers. From my own findings, most D&D groups use 2.5 player's handbooks amongst their 4.5 players. So this means that the D&D market is larger than PHB sales would indicate.

Apparently, it is, because, a few dozen individuals who have, over twenty-odd years spent "thousands" of dollars (more likely hundreds) is utterly meaningless in the face of a gigantic casual fan-base who spend a few dozen dollars every year.

If you can't understand that, well, I'm sorry for you, but it's very simple and straightfoward economics.

Again, you are assuming I am referring to extreme fans. You are also assuming how much they spend, how much a casual fan spends and that I don't have an understanding of simple economics. The economics involved are a bit more complicated than that, but yes I get that a handful of hardcore fans do not add up to the many purchases of the masses. What you may not understand is that RPGs are a niche market with the majority of its particpants being dedicate fans, with very few casual players. The majority of FR fans are dedicated to the setting, just as Greyhawk's fans are. I think it takes that to run or play in a setting honestly. WOTC is trying to change that with 4e. The only part of the FR fan base that is gigantic is the people who read RA Salvatore's novels. Most of which don't play D&D.

"Extreme" fans are few in number, loud in voice, and incapable of supporting this kind of product line by themselves. How hard is this to understand? Impossible for some, apparently. It really blows my mind.

What makes it even funnier, is that these extreme fans are in utter 100% denial that anyone has ever gotten bored with the 2E/3E realms and their tendencies, and stopped spending. I'm pretty sure WotC aren't in denial about this, however.

Your overall tone, disregard for those "extreme" fans and negative attitude towards me is very rude. Can you please take a step back and not read into my statements with such disdain. Also, please don't be so quick to make assumptions about people posting here. I would prefer to have a ration discussion with you instead of being attacked unecessarily.

 

[Najo]

Thank you for the condescension.

I am aware of how valid the points are here. However, why is it, whenever polls directly back up a talking point, the polls are completely invalid, but, when polls don't, they should be taken as gospel?

Of the almost 400 people who responded here, a fair chunk are pretty happy with the changes. Of course it's self selecting, but, then again, look at the question? It deals with 4e, it deals with the FR and specifically about changes to FR. Any poll you could possibly make that would give you meaningful results at all would have to be self selecting.

In other words, polling what people at, say, Canonfire, think about the changes would be stupid. So, where would you poll, and what would you ask that would be any more valid than this?

Exactly, I agree 100% Hussar. I would like to add to what you are saying, that once we have poll results like we do, we can discuss the reasons why the poll is showing what it is. The poll is more accurate than anyone's hunches. Those discussions could lead to valuable insights. It is important to understand what the disgruntled fan base reasons for not being happy, and then look at those reasons that are consistantly coming up.

 

[Najo]

Because most of the 3e canon is written on the assumption that you have been following 2e canon as well. They reference, repeatedly, events that occured before the release of 3e. The entire reason the Realms looks like it does originates in 2e, not 3e. (okay, I'm ignoring bits here for simplicity, but, bear with me)

Even with books like PGtF, they reference numerous books and events outside of 3e. This is the base book that all FR players are probably assumed to have. You don't just start with "Silver Marches" and go from there, ignoring for the moment that you're talking about a book that's for 3e and not even for 3.5. At least, a new player wouldn't. A new player is going to start with the PGtF. A fairly reasonable place to start.

And, right in the introductory book, he gets slapped in the face with twentyish years of canon, much of it out of print. Why are the Elves coming back? Why did they leave in the first place? Myth Dranor and the Mythal. Harpers. Elminister. Kelben Blackstaff.

Right in the opening book, a new player is being whacked with a big stinky canon fish.

Now, hopefully, I can pick up the new PGtF, and it will begin historical references at the beginning of the Spellplague. I don't need to know what Unther was - it's gone. I don't need to know what happened in the Underdark beforehand - it's a big open pit now.

Fantastic. I no longer have to wade through pages of reprinted historical material because a major event has rendered most of it irrelevent.

Although I agree the Realms needed a good reset button, the reason I think that the FR fans who are not happy are reacting the way they are is because of this last part, that most of the history has been rendered irrelevent. Hopefully the team finds a way tribute the past without getting in the way of the new players. Otherwise, that is the very spirit being snuffed out I spoke of earlier.

The other thing that I think is dangerous WOTC is doing is making the Realms so apocalyptic feeling. Forgotten Realms is feeling like a chainsaw was used on it, instead of a surgeon's scalpel. This is another area causing the group that loved the realms to push away from it now.

Finally, I disagree with WOTC trying to crowbar the 4e races into the Realms. Just because the races are in the player's handbook doesn't mean that they have to be in every setting. Both the new version of the Tieflings and the Dragonborn feel like they don't fit the feel of the Realms. The designers even said that the Dragonborn that popped in at the end of 3.5 were different species and that they are having to ignore them because of the 4e dragonborn being put into place. I think it would have been better to say that the Dragonborn descended from the previous ones and the spellplague changed them over the 100 years instead of just ignoring the past event and plopping the new dragonborn down into the world. The tiefling could be handled similiarly, being demons or half-demons that become altered when the planes and gods are thrown into ruin.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Exactly, I agree 100% Hussar. I would like to add to what you are saying, that once we have poll results like we do, we can discuss the reasons why the poll is showing what it is. The poll is more accurate than anyone's hunches. Those discussions could lead to valuable insights. It is important to understand what the disgruntled fan base reasons for not being happy, and then look at those reasons that are consistantly coming up.

Though note, there might be two different groups of people, one that says all internet polls are skewed and not good indicators of general opinion, and those that only select/allows polls that are in their favor.

I don't know what's generally true (I should try a poll on that! ), but personally, I think internet polls are always skewed. The real question is if you can still gather something from it, and how so? Maybe you can get a tendency, but you need to add further information sources? (I guess that's what WotC has been doing in the past)

 

[Fenes]

It's not just that the FR history is thrown away or rendered irrelevant, it's that all the campaign history of many of those who run long campaigns is rendered irrelevant.

I am not about to dump all my home-made NPCs, areas and politics in exchange for a 100 year jump into a fresh start - on the contrary, I don't want a blank slate, I spent years changing the FRs into a setting I am comfortable with.

Currently it looks like I'll just mine the 4Realms for ideas, and ignore most of it.

 

[Steely Dan]

It's not just that the FR history is thrown away or rendered irrelevant, it's that all the campaign history of many of those who run long campaigns is rendered irrelevant.

I am not about to dump all my home-made NPCs, areas and politics in exchange for a 100 year jump into a fresh start - on the contrary, I don't want a blank slate, I spent years changing the FRs into a setting I am comfortable with.

You can just ignore what a few people/writers have chosen to do and keep going with your ongoing FR campaign (about 18 years for me) as I am – Elminster was slain a while ago by Asmodeus around the time of the Yamun Kahan (horde) invasion, and Drizzt has been working the streets of Calimport as rough trade for years.

I have always thought the Zhentarim were lame – they don't exist and a bunch of other tweaks.

I hate when writers come along with a novel or adventure/module and completely decimate the flavour/premise/canon etc of a campaign setting – Faction War, The Prism Pentad etc.

…Ptui!