Area of a medieval town?

S'mon

Legend
Thanks - the town is walled for defensive purposes. There are marauding gnolls that raid the towns, so some sort of defense is needed.

Probably a palisade; since gnolls aren't much into siege works a stone wall would probably be overkill.

IRL, the likelihood of raiders has prompted a variety of responses.

In the Scottish Borders there were a small number of well defended walled towns, but most poor people seem to have been semi-nomadic herders of cattle, which can be moved easily away from invaders. Scotland is also littered with fortified manor houses, which are basically towers (tall, narrow) which local minor nobles could defend against rivals and raiders.

In modern Afghanistan we see on the news from Helmand that the standard approach is fortified single-family dwellings, which can accommodate a couple dozen people and be defended against small raiding bands. This was also common in the medieval Scottish highlands and Scandinavia.
 

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Mournblade94

Adventurer
Fireballs would have to be more common than the hazards that regularly did burn down real medieval and post-medieval cities. Cities were extremely vulnerable to fire, but for practical reasons they remained closely packed.

This is particularly true for walled towns, the standard sort in D&D - defensive walls are very expensive and the land within would be very very closely packed. It's possible that a world with ubiquitous fireballs might not have walled towns, though - assuming wandering orcs aren't a more likely threat.

Villages tended to either cluster around a village green or spread out along a road.

Being a simulationist, and someone that studies history in depth, I used to ponder this all the time. In fact, I was at one point ready to get rid of a fantasy Icon... the castle because magic made castles even more obsolete than did the bombard. With flying creatures and spells there was no purpose to walls or moats. One Rock to mud spell was more valuable than any trebuchet.

Simply I STOPPED pondering these things. I still have tons of castles, even though air attacks are possible. My campaign is still a western medieval world even though magic would render it obsolete. I found it was no longer fun to make things technical. At that moment I was even able to watch star trek again without complaining about impossible molecular biology.

I research history, and I am a scientist by profession. I frequently have to leave those disciplines behind just so I can enjoy the game without worrying about technicalities.

Still it is very hard for simulationists to do that.
 

gizmo33

First Post
Simply I STOPPED pondering these things. I still have tons of castles, even though air attacks are possible. My campaign is still a western medieval world even though magic would render it obsolete.

But logically, magic could also render it feasible.

IMO DnD simply suffers from a lack of development of counter-measures for these things. There's fireball, but inexplicably no "waterball". Wands of waterball would make a city of wood and thatch a more comfortable place. I see no reason that there aren't types of stone, or spells, that can render a castle immune to rock to mud. If I can cast "protection from fire" on a flammable PC, why not "protection from mud" on a castle wall?

People in history developed counter-measures to threats. I think it's reasonable to assume that the fantasy world works the way it does because people developed materials, spells, etc. that make it feasible. DnD has largely developed from a player-centric perspective, and the unlikelihood that a PC would be interested in a waterball spell probably drove most of the inbalance that simulationists see in the rules.

A moat would be useful against 10,000 land-based creatures, so a few flying creatures might not render a castle obsolete. A few long-ranged ballistas and making sure you have some roof cover for towers and parapets (which would be historical anyway IIRC) might help against the flying. Swarms of keen-sighted flying pirana might help too (and not so much a threat against the legion of 10,000).

AFAICT 4e helps by decreasing the availability of flying and invisibility, but I think these strategies, combined with a "don't think about it so much" philosophy might help.
 


AllisterH

First Post
re: Medieval towns with magic.

I think in 1e/2e you didn't really have to worry about the effect of magic on things like towns and castles due to the rarity concept.

If only 1 in a million people even knew the rock to mud spell, the odds are certainly low enough that you can discount the effect of that spell. Same thing goes for fireballs etc.

Which is why I think in 1e/2e the classic medieval town makes sense since spellcasters are rare to begin with and every level after first, the rarity drops in a hurry. (Anyone remember what the 1e DMG had as breakdowns for class and level in a typical 1e/2e world?)

Smetgzer raises the point that much of the source of fires in a typical medieval town are no longer needed (and this is certainly true in Eberron) but most of the 3e worlds didn't understand what the increased appearance of spells and spellcasters did for the world.
 

gizmo33

First Post
I think in 1e/2e you didn't really have to worry about the effect of magic on things like towns and castles due to the rarity concept.

If only 1 in a million people even knew the rock to mud spell, the odds are certainly low enough that you can discount the effect of that spell. Same thing goes for fireballs etc.

I don't see how the rarity thing can work (other than the DM just saying it). I think the accessibility of a resource isn't the only factor. It's also it's influence.

AFAICT all it would take is a few people with a spell that renders 10's of thousands of gold pieces worth of expenditure obsolete. So if I'm a king, I'd rather spend 90,000 gp on a search for that one person in my kingdom who can cast rock to mud then deal with the overhead and time required in building and maintaining a castle. And if I'm the one guy in the kingdom that can cast the spell, why not approach the king and say "hey, pay me the costs of 5 castles and I'll join your army".

And this assumes that it's really only 1 in a million people that can cast rock to mud. I think that value doesn't really match the demographics of what PCs actually encounter in the world (IMO - based on a "typical" adventure module). 9th level PCs aren't that rare in people's games, so why would 9th level NPCs be? YMMV but my general experience is that a 9th level campaign doesn't consist of the PCs fighting zillions of low level NPCs. So in a game where the PCs are constantly battling NPCs of sufficient power to cast transmute rock to mud, I think it's a little inconsistent to then argue that these NPCs aren't around when a war starts.

And even if the NPCs are rare - a 9th level PC wizard will suddenly find himself with tremendous power if castles aren't capable of counter-acting his powers.

It also doesn't take into account persons who have a magic item with this power, but can't cast it themselves. Or the possibility of researching a lesser version that would be very useful but lower level (perhaps with less of an area of effect or other restrictions - like a single 10 ft cube).

Which is why I think in 1e/2e the classic medieval town makes sense since spellcasters are rare to begin with and every level after first, the rarity drops in a hurry. (Anyone remember what the 1e DMG had as breakdowns for class and level in a typical 1e/2e world?)

I only remember a later 2e supplement (about how level adventurers, I think) having anything about demographics. IIRC 3e was the first DnD to have demographic guidelines that were somewhat official (or at least in the core rules)

Smetgzer raises the point that much of the source of fires in a typical medieval town are no longer needed (and this is certainly true in Eberron) but most of the 3e worlds didn't understand what the increased appearance of spells and spellcasters did for the world.

There's cooking, warmth, industry (blacksmithing etc.), branding, and a zillion other uses for fire besides light. People in the city are probably burning magical candles for luck, or lit incense for their deities. Or just pleasant light (like they do IRL) And there's arson and fire-based monsters. "Not as" dangerous as IRL doesn't immediately mean to me that fire isn't still a basic issue in fantasy cities. Again, severity would be as much of a consideration as frequency. One summoned salamander, no matter how infrequent, would be a problem if he could run around and destroy the whole city.

An army big enough to take over a city was probably pretty rare, but it didn't stop people from building walls around it. IME people worry about rare stuff.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
re: Medieval towns with magic.

I think in 1e/2e you didn't really have to worry about the effect of magic on things like towns and castles due to the rarity concept.

If only 1 in a million people even knew the rock to mud spell, the odds are certainly low enough that you can discount the effect of that spell. Same thing goes for fireballs etc.

Which is why I think in 1e/2e the classic medieval town makes sense since spellcasters are rare to begin with and every level after first, the rarity drops in a hurry. (Anyone remember what the 1e DMG had as breakdowns for class and level in a typical 1e/2e world?)

Smetgzer raises the point that much of the source of fires in a typical medieval town are no longer needed (and this is certainly true in Eberron) but most of the 3e worlds didn't understand what the increased appearance of spells and spellcasters did for the world.

why are spellcasters more common in 3E? I've actually found the opposite.

If anything, I have seen parties with fewer of them since the advent of 3E. Back in 2E days, most of my old gaming group was some sort of multi-classed caster - fighter/mage; mage/cleric; mage/thief; cleric; specialist mage 1; specialist mage 2; then we had ranger, thief and fighter to round out the group, and the ranger could also cast some minor spells, too. Only 3 humans in the group as well. At least with 3E, there are reasons to play humans and/or non casters.

I think spellcasters are as common or rare as the DM wants them to be.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
But logically, magic could also render it feasible.

IMO DnD simply suffers from a lack of development of counter-measures for these things. There's fireball, but inexplicably no "waterball". Wands of waterball would make a city of wood and thatch a more comfortable place. I see no reason that there aren't types of stone, or spells, that can render a castle immune to rock to mud. If I can cast "protection from fire" on a flammable PC, why not "protection from mud" on a castle wall?

People in history developed counter-measures to threats. I think it's reasonable to assume that the fantasy world works the way it does because people developed materials, spells, etc. that make it feasible. DnD has largely developed from a player-centric perspective, and the unlikelihood that a PC would be interested in a waterball spell probably drove most of the inbalance that simulationists see in the rules.

A moat would be useful against 10,000 land-based creatures, so a few flying creatures might not render a castle obsolete. A few long-ranged ballistas and making sure you have some roof cover for towers and parapets (which would be historical anyway IIRC) might help against the flying. Swarms of keen-sighted flying pirana might help too (and not so much a threat against the legion of 10,000).

AFAICT 4e helps by decreasing the availability of flying and invisibility, but I think these strategies, combined with a "don't think about it so much" philosophy might help.

agreed with that - why would anybody sail in a wooden boat if one pirate mage could torch your boat with a fireball from 600 feet away? However, if a cheap alchemical substance was available to counteract a fireball type spell, then maybe a fireball isn't so useful there. (There is an item called "smotherblend" in the Goods & Gear book from Kenzer that does that...)
 

Mournblade94

Adventurer
But logically, magic could also render it feasible.

IMO DnD simply suffers from a lack of development of counter-measures for these things. There's fireball, but inexplicably no "waterball". Wands of waterball would make a city of wood and thatch a more comfortable place. I see no reason that there aren't types of stone, or spells, that can render a castle immune to rock to mud. If I can cast "protection from fire" on a flammable PC, why not "protection from mud" on a castle wall?

People in history developed counter-measures to threats. I think it's reasonable to assume that the fantasy world works the way it does because people developed materials, spells, etc. that make it feasible. DnD has largely developed from a player-centric perspective, and the unlikelihood that a PC would be interested in a waterball spell probably drove most of the inbalance that simulationists see in the rules.

A moat would be useful against 10,000 land-based creatures, so a few flying creatures might not render a castle obsolete. A few long-ranged ballistas and making sure you have some roof cover for towers and parapets (which would be historical anyway IIRC) might help against the flying. Swarms of keen-sighted flying pirana might help too (and not so much a threat against the legion of 10,000).

AFAICT 4e helps by decreasing the availability of flying and invisibility, but I think these strategies, combined with a "don't think about it so much" philosophy might help.

I am in agreement here. I did explore the magicpseudohistorical arms race, and that is actually when I stopped:) It became a case of "where do you draw the line".

With that said I DO have enchantments for castle walls to make them immune to rock to mud.
 

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