D&D 5E Aren't Short Rest classes *better* in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?

[Baron Opal II]

Yes there should be a time cost, except the structure of o5e's ruleset if often designed to subordinate the narrative rather than support it by trivializing the gm's toolkit when it comes to options other than yet another doomclock.
edit: That causes short rest classes to be "better in story based games".

Write new, better rules.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I admit to being confused by the distinction you're making between social encounter's and adventure. Why are the social encounters something that takes place outside of the adventure?

I mean a dungeon crawl. Social or combat, It's all Adventure!

But in a dungeon crawl, time is slower and encounters happen frequently. Using your 3X/short rest power requires a bit more care to use: do I use it all in this one encounter? do I save it for the next room?

Whereas, in town, when I know, "I need to question the noble in the morning." and then, "I need to go inquire about information about the dungeon with my contact in the afternoon" and then, "in the evening we are going to go into the catacombs".

Essentially, time in between each 'encounter' is handwaived. I can short rest before each one and have all my short rest uses back. By the time we go to the catacombs, I have them all refreshed but now have to use them more sparingly.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, I see the wizard brought up often and I believe that I may have mentioned them as well, but upon reflection I think the wizard is irrelevant.

The wizard isn't a warlock replacement or vice-versa. Their playstyles and approaches to adventures are too different to be properly compared.

You are on to something here. We shouldn't be comparing a warlock to a wizard for this discussion, we should be comparing a short rest warlock to a long rest warlock - all else being equal.

Most people go with times 3 to convert short rest resources into long rest ones (I think times 2 is a better conversion but let's use the more popular one). Is a Warlock going to be stronger if he starts the adventuring day off with 6 long rest slots from levels 1-10 or 9 slots of 5th level from 11-16, or 12 slots of 5th level for level 17+?

Does anyone think that overall the warlock with short rest slots is stronger than the warlock with long rest slots? I know I don't. Does anyone?

 

[Asisreo]

Most people go with times 3 to convert short rest resources into long rest ones (I think times 2 is a better conversion but let's use the more popular one). Is a Warlock going to be stronger if he starts the adventuring day off with 6 long rest slots from levels 1-10 or 9 slots of 5th level from 11-16, or 12 slots of 5th level for level 17+?

Now you're comparing a homebrew warlock with the RAW version and giving it access to more slots at once than they ordinarily would have.

The Long rest version would absolutely be overtuned. Even in a long combat, taking 5-6 rounds, the warlock gets to cast a maximum spell slot every round. This could cause a serious inter-party balance issue. Warlocks are balanced because they can't use those high-level slots all at once.

If you want to compare a long-rest warlock vs a short-rest warlock, why not use the RAW version of both.

For example, a RAW long-rest warlock would have either at-will abilities or long-rest abilities. For example, Mage Armor and Bane. A purely short-rest warlock would have at-will abilities and regular spells. Honestly, they don't look too different, but the long rest one ensures they have access to spells that capitalize on their limitation and at-will capabilities that don't rely on resting at all.

Which one is stronger is up to debate. Personally, though, I'd give it to the short-rest oriented warlock.

 

[FrogReaver]

Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:

1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?

No one is disputing that it can sometimes be 'useful' to have slots recharge on short rest - as your eample illustrates. I actually think the Wall of Stone use you cite is one of the best case uses for the warlock and short rest recharges that i've heard. It's definitely a spell I'll be taking on my Warlocks in the future. The question really is around how useful and how often such scenarios arise.

 

[FrogReaver]

Now you're comparing a homebrew warlock with the RAW version and giving it access to more slots at once than they ordinarily would have.

The Long rest version would absolutely be overtuned. Even in a long combat, taking 5-6 rounds, the warlock gets to cast a maximum spell slot every round. This could cause a serious inter-party balance issue. Warlocks are balanced because they can't use those high-level slots all at once.

So your position now is that we shouldn't compare the warlock to a wizard, nor to a warlock that refreshes slots on a long rest (but gets more slots). It's almost like your current position is that we shouldn't compare the warlock to anything - and I don't think that is a strong position.

The title of this thread: "Aren't Short Rest classes better in "story-based" games rather than dungeon crawls?" I think it's safe to say that a warlock in what you call a more 'story-based' game will probably outperform a warlock in a dungeon crawl. But this is where the wizard or long rest slot recharging warlock comes into the discussion - the short rest recharge warlock is likely not going to outperform either of them in a more 'story based' game - even though the short rest spell recharge warlock can be more time efficient as certain spells than either of those casters can - but for efficency to matter you have to be in a scenario where that increase in effeciency means the wizard or long rest recharge warlock wouldn't have completed the task in time for whatever happens next.

I do think you make a good case for bringing a short rest warlock along though, as he does offer some capabilities that traditional casters are not going to be particularly efficient at - especially when not in the dungeon. So if you already have a wizard in the party, a warlock makes an excellent 2nd arcane caster.

If you want to compare a long-rest warlock vs a short-rest warlock, why not use the RAW version of both.


For example, a RAW long-rest warlock would have either at-will abilities or long-rest abilities. For example, Mage Armor and Bane. A purely short-rest warlock would have at-will abilities and regular spells. Honestly, they don't look too different, but the long rest one ensures they have access to spells that capitalize on their limitation and at-will capabilities that don't rely on resting at all.

Which one is stronger is up to debate. Personally, though, I'd give it to the short-rest oriented warlock.

• There's not a RAW warlock that recharges spell slots on a long rest
• The best way to compare the impact of short rest vs long rest slots is to keep all else equal

 

[jmartkdr2]

Let's say a 9th level party decides that it is worth the time to build a small fortress. To save money they're going to perform as much of the work themselves as they can. Two questions:

1. Would you consider construction to be downtime?
2. When calculating the time required to build the fortress, would you take into account that a 9th Level Wizard can only cast Wall of Stone twice per day, but a 9th Level Genie (Dao) Warlock can cast Wall of Stone approximately 24 times per day? (Assuming 240 minutes of casting/concentration and 11 short rests.) Or would you ignore how often each class can cast their spells?

Yes and yes. Are walls of stone permanent?

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes and yes. Are walls of stone permanent?

If you concentrate on them for the 10 minute duration.

 

[jmartkdr2]

If you concentrate on them for the 10 minute duration.

Then a dao warlock is a hella good contractor.

I'm not sure that makes short rest classes better at story-driven games, sine "building a castle" isn't necessarily a story point.

 

[tetrasodium]

Then a dao warlock is a hella good contractor.

I'm not sure that makes short rest classes better at story-driven games, sine "building a castle" isn't necessarily a story point.

Replace wall of stone with fireball heat metal or whatever "iconic" spell & the comparison becomes both easier as well as more relevant to an average game of d&d