Argh!! Useless Rogues

[Shellman]

I love to play Rogues, but damn I hate those Will Saves!

 

[Pickaxe]

Please also note that there is a fairly heafty -20 to your hide skill when you are Sniping.

And two weapon fighting is an excellent option with SA... YMMV
how... exactly?
Good tips.

Mike

I wasn't actually thinking about sniping, partly because I've never really used it. I imagine that you're thinking that sniping is the only way to get more sneak attacks from a ranged weapon, whereas a melee rogue can get the sneak by flanking. I still find that rogues who flank are more likely to become dead rogues.

Of course, a bow rogue can take Rapid Shot to get the same benefit that a melee rogue gets with TWF. I actually think TWF could go very nice with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw to give you lots of attacks with daggers or darts (and an effective +3 to hit if you're a halfling). The downside to the multiple attacks is the combat penalties. Another thing to consider, then, is attacks that have ranged touch attacks, like acid flasks. (You might also consider a level of wizard for some ray spells.)

The benefits of Glitterdust have been mentioned. I know in one of our campaigns the combination of a sorcerer with Glitterdust and a rogue with Rapid Shot immediately elevated the rogue's effectiveness in those situations where they could both be used. Of course, another spell that the rogue will like is Greater Invisibility. And don't forget tanglefoot bags.

--Axe

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I wasn't actually thinking about sniping, partly because I've never really used it. I imagine that you're thinking that sniping is the only way to get more sneak attacks from a ranged weapon, whereas a melee rogue can get the sneak by flanking. I still find that rogues who flank are more likely to become dead rogues.

Of course, a bow rogue can take Rapid Shot to get the same benefit that a melee rogue gets with TWF. I actually think TWF could go very nice with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw to give you lots of attacks with daggers or darts (and an effective +3 to hit if you're a halfling). The downside to the multiple attacks is the combat penalties. Another thing to consider, then, is attacks that have ranged touch attacks, like acid flasks. (You might also consider a level of wizard for some ray spells.)

The benefits of Glitterdust have been mentioned. I know in one of our campaigns the combination of a sorcerer with Glitterdust and a rogue with Rapid Shot immediately elevated the rogue's effectiveness in those situations where they could both be used. Of course, another spell that the rogue will like is Greater Invisibility. And don't forget tanglefoot bags.

--Axe

umm...

Rogues are my personal fav. class. The possibilities! Throwing daggers, Rapid Shot, Two Weapon Fighting, and Quick Draw. Combine that with a good tumble check, and you're sneak-attacking up the wazoo! Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive make for a great roll-player, and even party leader
Of course, Hide and Move Silently have their own niche. Cross-classing, to me, can prove to be very powerful for a rogue. Pick up 2 levels of fighter to get 2 extra feats... or 4 levels for weapon specialization (if you're really a "combat rogue" as I like to call 'em.) Sorcer is great for a Charismatic rogue, Wizard great for a skill-based one (high intel.) "Weapon-like" spells (rays, commonly) also work great with rogues. All you need is a ranged touch attack, and you get the spell's damage AND sneak attack damage? Yeah, I'll take that. Think of the possibilities for an assassin Spells can also compliment and enhance a rogue's ability to do its "job" in a lot of cases, too: open lock, jump, feather fall, true strike, etc. etc.

 

[Maddenus Gittenus]

I took a few levels of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. sounds good eh?

Unless you are in the underdark and everything has blindsight ;0

I have a great character, its just he happens to be up against everything that can see everything Try spring attack too, that way you get in and out without being hit and if it looks like the enemy is going to ready an action to hit you when you do spring in then the others in the party are free to act without fear of being hit (except aoo)

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I took a few levels of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. sounds good eh?

Unless you are in the underdark and everything has blindsight ;0

I have a great character, its just he happens to be up against everything that can see everything Try spring attack too, that way you get in and out without being hit and if it looks like the enemy is going to ready an action to hit you when you do spring in then the others in the party are free to act without fear of being hit (except aoo)

Personally, I think Shadowdancer is one of the best prestige classes for rogues out there, overall. Granted, if you are trying to do something specific with your character, you may want something else... but Shadowdancer is just darn cool... I just wish they got extra sneak attack dice...

I'd still reccomend a level or 3 in a spellcaster (probably preferribly wizard.) By 3rd level wizard, yo uget second level spells. Read: invisibility, cat's grace, melf's acid arrow, etc. etc.

 

[Kilroy]

Rogues are easily and frequently the worst class for groups. I've played them alot, up to epic levels, and I've seen other people in my group play them with the same problems.

- Entire broad classes of creatures negate the two most often used rogue abilities. When you're fighting things immune to sneak attack and sneaking, you may as well not even be there. No other class has such broad and common groups of creatures against which they're totally ineffective.

- Skills are frequently outclassed by first or second level spells. When they're not, they're often useless because the entire party needs them and only the rogue has them. You may as well not have them.

DM: "You need to sneak past these arbitrary guards."
Rog: "I can take 10 for a 48 on Hide and Move Silently!"
Fighter: "I can get a 7 if I roll a 20."
Mystic Theurge: "Don't worry, I'll cast Invisibility Sphere and Silence."
Rog: ... why am I here?

- When you can avoid all the critters with truesight, scent, blind sight, blind sense, tremorsense, life sense, detect thoughts or spot skills, and you can scout out a place, (like my group's ninja 2 weeks ago) the rest of the group may not get a chance to act for an entire game session. Seriously. It's as bad as a Shadowrun decker. The rest of the group should bring some cards.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Rogues are easily and frequently the worst class for groups. I've played them alot, up to epic levels, and I've seen other people in my group play them with the same problems.

- Entire broad classes of creatures negate the two most often used rogue abilities. When you're fighting things immune to sneak attack and sneaking, you may as well not even be there. No other class has such broad and common groups of creatures against which they're totally ineffective.

- Skills are frequently outclassed by first or second level spells. When they're not, they're often useless because the entire party needs them and only the rogue has them. You may as well not have them.

DM: "You need to sneak past these arbitrary guards."
Rog: "I can take 10 for a 48 on Hide and Move Silently!"
Fighter: "I can get a 7 if I roll a 20."
Mystic Theurge: "Don't worry, I'll cast Invisibility Sphere and Silence."
Rog: ... why am I here?

- When you can avoid all the critters with truesight, scent, blind sight, blind sense, tremorsense, life sense, detect thoughts or spot skills, and you can scout out a place, (like my group's ninja 2 weeks ago) the rest of the group may not get a chance to act for an entire game session. Seriously. It's as bad as a Shadowrun decker. The rest of the group should bring some cards.

Seems like you only play high-level games. What about when you're at lower levels and can't just throw spells around? Also, you're not taking role-playing into account. Rogues have a lot of social skills that would otherwise be hard to replace. Mind you, many things can also counter/counterspell magic, too. Or even detect it, which can be worse. And who cares if some creatures are immune to sneak attack?? Theres a lot that have high saves and Spell Resistance, too. Besides its not the number of creatures that are immune to sneak attack that matters, but the number of creatures YOU ENCOUNTER that matter. It's NOT like you're fighting golems EVERY game...
You can make rogues BAD ASS if you know how to play them right. I also think that the best rogues are multiclasses, too. So who knows? You can pick up a little magic while you're at it, and make things interesting...
That being said, only seldom few people can actually pull off rogues to their full effectiveness (or close to, anyways.) I've seen very, VERY few people play them devastating-ly (which is always fun to do! )

 

[ARandomGod]

Personally, I think Shadowdancer is one of the best prestige classes for rogues out there, overall. Granted, if you are trying to do something specific with your character, you may want something else... but Shadowdancer is just darn cool... I just wish they got extra sneak attack dice...

I'd still reccomend a level or 3 in a spellcaster (probably preferribly wizard.) By 3rd level wizard, yo uget second level spells. Read: invisibility, cat's grace, melf's acid arrow, etc. etc.

I loves me some shadowdancer levels. Very useful for a rogue. As for a level or three of mage... well, if you take three levels of mage you just *have* go to Arcane Trickster, for full caster progression with full sneak attack progression, and the occasional "improvised sneak attack" (class ability which allows you to say, "this attack will be a sneak attack, even though I meet none of the requirements for it to BE a sneak attack" a certain number of times per day.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I took a few levels of shadowdancer for hide in plain sight. sounds good eh?

Unless you are in the underdark and everything has blindsight ;0

Hie thee to Lords of Madness, and check out the Darkstalker feat. Yet another required Rogue feat. "Blindsense? HAH!"

Brad

 

[ARandomGod]

Hie thee to Lords of Madness, and check out the Darkstalker feat. Yet another required Rogue feat. "Blindsense? HAH!"

Brad

Lords of Madness, eh? (Strokes chin).

Tell me more of this "Madness" of which you speak.