Argh!! Useless Rogues

[nittanytbone]

Rogues can benefit hugely from a bit of multiclassing, as mentioned before. Higher levels don't get them any really great qualitative benefits IMHO, so dipping here and there isn't a bad idea. A level of ranger can boost your power vs the sneak attack-proof types as well as get you a bundle of useful outdoor skills. A level of sorcerer lets you use "true strike" all the time to boost your sneak attacks as well as a wide variety of wands. Fighter can toughen you up and get some extra combat feats.

Our group currently has two multiclass rogues that are quite effective. One is a Rogue 1, Ranger 2, Fighter 1 social expert. He has favored enemy-human and the ranger bonuses stack nicely with his TON of rogue social skill points. Front-loading rogue cost a bit of BAB and 4 HP, but it grants what would otherwise be a pretty bland fighter a lot more versatility.

The other rogue is a rogue 2, barbarian 2. He handles traps and devices as well as ranged combat. The barbarian weapons selection, rage, and hit point boost nicely complement the trap-finding ability and weaker combat abilities of rogues.

So, don't discount the rogue... Its an especially useful class to front-load for tons of skill points or dip into for a level or two to pick up evasion and extra damage for the lower strength crowd.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But wouldn't it be use activated, and thus, not continuous?

The cost is the same.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

The cost is the same.

Still easily worth the money, especially at higher levels.

 

[lukelightning]

The problem is, a lot of these "fix the rogue" strategies rely on special magic items or feats which are not in the core books. You can't say a class is balanced or effective just because it may be possible to make a special magic item to allow it to do something. What if the DM doesn't allow it? What if there is no opportunity to make or find such an item? Once again the rogue is reliant on factors entirely outside his or her control.

And I would like to echo the statements that it is too easy to eclipse a rogue's abilities with simple magic, and there are far too many abilities which nullify a rogue.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

The problem is, a lot of these "fix the rogue" strategies rely on special magic items or feats which are not in the core books. You can't say a class is balanced or effective just because it may be possible to make a special magic item to allow it to do something. What if the DM doesn't allow it? What if there is no opportunity to make or find such an item? Once again the rogue is reliant on factors entirely outside his or her control.

And I would like to echo the statements that it is too easy to eclipse a rogue's abilities with simple magic, and there are far too many abilities which nullify a rogue.

I don't think there's any argument that you CAN'T substitute for a rogue. MY line of thinking is that if you have a party big enough (ie. have enough people to spare) then yeah, get a rogue. It's so worth saving the spellcasters spells, which tehy can use elsewhere. (Enlarge Person can be devistating. I'd rather have one of those than Knock, Open Lock, Detect Traps, etc.)

 

[7&7]

Multiple Attacks

Could someone tell me the base attack bonus for a 13th level character, 6 levels in a Fighter class and 7 level in a Cleric class? I think I have it figured out but want to see what others will come up with.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Fighter 6: +6
Cleric 7: +6

Fighter 6 / Cleric 7: +12 / +7 / +2

 

[Lord Wyrm]

As I have already mentioned pick skills that you as the player prompt, not the DM. Search is always fun for use on corpses(find that magic ring without taking 20 to do so like the rest of the party). Hide isn't just for hiding oneself, though the penalty is incredible you can no magically hide anything, which is good for the old ambush. Read Lips, a little Appraise, and the Profession, Knowledge and Craft skills are all prompted by the player 90% of the time. If the Dm isn't laying traps and throws creatures immune to crits at you then get creative with the freed up skill points. Use Magic Device is a show stopper with the right scrolls, and don't you love pairing that with Bluff and disguise and pretend to be the party mage. The evil wizard is real keen to kill another mage with fireball until you make that reflex save with evasion. Undead are a breeze when you use spells that cripple them, Sunbeam for one, or Hallow. Remember each scroll you cast from is one more spell that the cleric or mage didn't have to cast themselves. Make use of your downtime to really abuse your out of cambat skills while the mage and cleric crank out more scrolls.

 

[Nail]

My Rogue 16/Fighter 2 did 300 or so damage against a black dragon couple sessions ago. ...

And speaking as "the cleric" who was present at the time, that Full Attack routine was an awesome sight to see.

Frankly, I don't buy the "rogues are useless" line. If the party doesn't do teamwork well, then just about every class is useless!

Over the last few sessions, our Rog 16/Ftr 2 found and disarmed countless traps, opened a gazillion locks, and used sneak-attack to deadly effect in several combats. And this is at 18th level! ...With spell-casters in the party! Why should the spell casters waste their potential memorizing the knock or Find Traps spells?

 

[Synthetik Fish]

And speaking as "the cleric" who was present at the time, that Full Attack routine was an awesome sight to see.

Frankly, I don't buy the "rogues are useless" line. If the party doesn't do teamwork well, then just about every class is useless!

Over the last few sessions, our Rog 16/Ftr 2 found and disarmed countless traps, opened a gazillion locks, and used sneak-attack to deadly effect in several combats. And this is at 18th level! ...With spell-casters in the party! Why should the spell casters waste their potential memorizing the knock or Find Traps spells?

+1 !!

I think you just about "Nail"-ed it!!