Armor as DR

[The Levitator]

I have been wanting to use DEX for melee attack bonuses for a while now too but haven't because I'm concerned about balance issues. Would switching to DEX gimp the fighter and make rogues more accurate in combat? I know they wouldn't do as much damage as a fighter when they land a blow, but a fighter isn't going to hurt anyone if he can't hit them in the first place. Using DEX for to-hit bonus makes total sense in regards to realism. I'm just very interested to hear how it works within the mechanics and balance of D&D and using the Armor as DR variant.

EDIT - I was also just thinking that maybe the reasoning for using STR is that just making contact with a weapon doesn't necessarily mean you will do any damage. Maybe STR is used because it takes a strong blow as well as an accurate one to hit someone hard enough to damage them. I'm interested to hear other views about using Armor as DR and DEX as to-hit bonus together.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

I have been wanting to use DEX for melee attack bonuses for a while now too but haven't because I'm concerned about balance issues. Would switching to DEX gimp the fighter and make rogues more accurate in combat? I know they wouldn't do as much damage as a fighter when they land a blow, but a fighter isn't going to hurt anyone if he can't hit them in the first place. Using DEX for to-hit bonus makes total sense in regards to realism. I'm just very interested to hear how it works within the mechanics and balance of D&D and using the Armor as DR variant.

From a balance perspective, I should think that using Dex for all attacks would be OK in a DR system provided that Str damage bonuses are doubled. Rogues would have an easier time hitting dextrous opponents (other Rogues) and Fighters would have an easier time overcoming DR (other Fighters). In 1994–97 I ran a 2nd Ed. game using Dex for all attacks. The PCs had to decide whether to hit more often for less damage or less often for more damage. It seemed to work fine under those rules. Haven’t tried it for 3.x.

I was also just thinking that maybe the reasoning for using STR is that just making contact with a weapon doesn't necessarily mean you will do any damage. Maybe STR is used because it takes a strong blow as well as an accurate one to hit someone hard enough to damage them. I'm interested to hear other views about using Armor as DR and DEX as to-hit bonus together.

From a realism or combat simulation perspective, I don't think the answer is quite so straightforward. Consider the following data points:

• Buy a plastic weapon from a costume store and notice how fast you can swing it as well as how easy it is to hit an object wherever you wish. Now try this with a real weapon (I have a few from Museum Replicas). The difference is significant. The plastic weapon demonstrates how Strength improves the ability to hit.

• A mace or club can hit an opponent from all sides of the weapon. Whereas an axe has a single edge (in real life not fantasy). It is a lot easier to hit an opponent with a mace than it is with an axe. A long sword is also difficult to hit with the edge and even more difficult to thrust with it. It would seem that Dex would help the axe and especially the sword fighters.

• These two data points would suggest that Str helps in attacks but that Dex helps with certain types of weapons as well. Dex may not help with sledge hammers and pickaxes but a high Str would certainly improve the attack.

• In real life physics, damage = mass X speed. Str allows us to swing weapons faster. However there are diminishing returns in effect as well. I can swing a plastic sword very fast but it won't do much damage at all. Whereas I can swing a real sword and do some very real damage.

Based on the data above, I propose the following House Rules:

• No weapon finesse feat. All light weapons use Dex for attack and ½ Str bonus for damage.

• Swords use ½ Dex and ½ Str for attack and full Str bonus for damage.

• Mass Arms (mace, axe, club, pick, etc.) use Str for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed swords use full Str + full Dex for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed mass arms (polearms, great axe, etc.) use 2x Str bonus for attack and damage.

Spears are little more difficult to describe. Studies have shown that it doesn't take as much force to punch through armor with a properly placed spear thrust. This suggests to me that Dexterity and not Strength determines the Attack. It also suggests that the Str bonus is multiplied for damage. In my personal experience I have found it very difficult to hit anyone using a one-handed spear. Even 2-h is more difficult than with a swinging weapon. That's because if the angle isn't correct, the spear just glances off the armor. How about the following?

• 1-handed spears use ½ Dex bonus to hit and 2x Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed spears use full Dex bonus to hit and 3x Str bonus for damage.

• Longspears use full Dex bonus to hit and 4x Str bonus for damage.

• Pikes and Sarissa use ½ Str bonus and ½ Dex bonus to hit (due to their sheer size) and 5x Str bonus for damage.

Comments?

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

As for Str, yeah, I'm all for switching to Dex for melee attack bonuses. I've never understood why an unarmed combatant would have a better chance at hitting an unarmored target if he was stronger, while being quicker / more agile made no difference.

My post above this one provides the detail, but in answer to your question it is Strength that provides one with the ability to swing a sword fast and not Dexterity. It is Dexterity that controls accuracy.

 

[GreatLemur]

My post above this one provides the detail, but in answer to your question it is Strength that provides one with the ability to swing a sword fast and not Dexterity.

Yeah, that's why I used unarmed combat as my example: Unless we're talking about the very extreme ends of the physical ability spectrum, strength doesn't noticeably affect how fast a person can move their own fists. There's just not enough weight to make a difference.

Your proposed ability score uses based on weapon type are all very well thought out, but I personally would rather stay away from rules involving halved bonuses and careful consideration of what category a weapon falls under. However, simply using Dex for attack and Str x2 for damage sounds perfect.

 

[The Levitator]

From a balance perspective, I should think that using Dex for all attacks would be OK in a DR system provided that Str damage bonuses are doubled. Rogues would have an easier time hitting dextrous opponents (other Rogues) and Fighters would have an easier time overcoming DR (other Fighters). In 1994–97 I ran a 2nd Ed. game using Dex for all attacks. The PCs had to decide whether to hit more often for less damage or less often for more damage. It seemed to work fine under those rules. Haven’t tried it for 3.x.



From a realism or combat simulation perspective, I don't think the answer is quite so straightforward. Consider the following data points:

• Buy a plastic weapon from a costume store and notice how fast you can swing it as well as how easy it is to hit an object wherever you wish. Now try this with a real weapon (I have a few from Museum Replicas). The difference is significant. The plastic weapon demonstrates how Strength improves the ability to hit.

• A mace or club can hit an opponent from all sides of the weapon. Whereas an axe has a single edge (in real life not fantasy). It is a lot easier to hit an opponent with a mace than it is with an axe. A long sword is also difficult to hit with the edge and even more difficult to thrust with it. It would seem that Dex would help the axe and especially the sword fighters.

• These two data points would suggest that Str helps in attacks but that Dex helps with certain types of weapons as well. Dex may not help with sledge hammers and pickaxes but a high Str would certainly improve the attack.

• In real life physics, damage = mass X speed. Str allows us to swing weapons faster. However there are diminishing returns in effect as well. I can swing a plastic sword very fast but it won't do much damage at all. Whereas I can swing a real sword and do some very real damage.

Based on the data above, I propose the following House Rules:

• No weapon finesse feat. All light weapons use Dex for attack and ½ Str bonus for damage.

• Swords use ½ Dex and ½ Str for attack and full Str bonus for damage.

• Mass Arms (mace, axe, club, pick, etc.) use Str for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed swords use full Str + full Dex for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed mass arms (polearms, great axe, etc.) use 2x Str bonus for attack and damage.

Spears are little more difficult to describe. Studies have shown that it doesn't take as much force to punch through armor with a properly placed spear thrust. This suggests to me that Dexterity and not Strength determines the Attack. It also suggests that the Str bonus is multiplied for damage. In my personal experience I have found it very difficult to hit anyone using a one-handed spear. Even 2-h is more difficult than with a swinging weapon. That's because if the angle isn't correct, the spear just glances off the armor. How about the following?

• 1-handed spears use ½ Dex bonus to hit and 2x Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed spears use full Dex bonus to hit and 3x Str bonus for damage.

• Longspears use full Dex bonus to hit and 4x Str bonus for damage.

• Pikes and Sarissa use ½ Str bonus and ½ Dex bonus to hit (due to their sheer size) and 5x Str bonus for damage.

Comments?

That is a VERY interesting approach! It looks very well thought out and seems to be pretty balanced, although I'm admittedly not a mathematician. We're not a number crunching group anyways; the story outweighs the physics and mechanics pretty favorably in our gaming group. That's not to say that mechanics and balance aren't important at all. My group consists of me and 2 others (playing since around 1981), 1 player who's been playing for about 4 years, and 1 fairly new player who is exceptional. I have one gamer who plays in a Rolemaster group and another who comes from GURPS. We calculated our combined gaming experience to be around 86 years (keeping in mind NET gaming is substantially less when us old farts have had to curtail gaming due to work and family obligations ). Between the 5 of us, we feel like we've found a really good balance between 3.5 RAW and more complex systems. Currently we are using:

+ Opposed Defense Roll from DMG
+ Armor as DR (including armor and shield physical damage)
+ Class Defense (simplified, Class Defense=BAB)
+ Shields +5%
+ Weapon Groups from UA
+ Clobbered Variant from DMG
+ Facing Variant from UA

I think that about covers our combat changes. It would be really easy to implement your ideas as I use DM Genie for running games. I'm going to set up a test campaign with your ideas (and your permission, of course) and run a couple one-offs. I'll be happy to post our groups conclusions (note that we're not experts or anything, just a group primarily composed of geezers who refuse to let go of our inner child).

Thanks for the great input!

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

Thanks for your kind words Levitator. I've been blessed with having had a couple of martial artists play in my campaign over the years who've given me some ideas, I used to play in the SCA for awhile, and my wife is a physicist who was gracious enough to put into layman's terms some of the physics of combat.

No need for my permisson, but you have it anyway. I'm very curious to see how it all plays out. I've tested bits and pieces and wish I could've used DM Genie. I've been playing D&D since 1977 and like your group, reluctant to let go of my inner child.

 

[erf_beto]

Based on the data above, I propose the following House Rules:

• No weapon finesse feat. All light weapons use Dex for attack and ½ Str bonus for damage.

• Swords use ½ Dex and ½ Str for attack and full Str bonus for damage.

• Mass Arms (mace, axe, club, pick, etc.) use Str for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed swords use full Str + full Dex for attack and 1.5 Str bonus for damage.

• 2-handed mass arms (polearms, great axe, etc.) use 2x Str bonus for attack and damage.

....

Comments?

does that make sense or does that make sense?
I think you really nailed it! Though i´m concerned that it won´t get to my table, since there´s just too much math and details to be remembered - but I suppose that´s what you meant by bolding 'realism' or 'combat simulation'

But, well, since this is "Armor as DR" thread, I also have to ask: do you think your rules would work without changing the rules regarding armor?

Also, from your 'Weapons and Physics 101' introduction, i got the impression that bludgeoning weapons benefit from high Str... do you think it would be acurate to use Dex for every weapon, except the blunt ones? Of course, that would make all fighters want a mace instead of a sword

and my wife is a physicist who

I knew there was a physicist somewhere in this!
Who knew we could learn usefull stuff like that in a physics class?
(just joking, i´ve had a lot of physics while in college )

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

But, well, since this is "Armor as DR" thread, I also have to ask: do you think your rules would work without changing the rules regarding armor?

Yes I do. I think adjusting Hit and Damage bonuses for Dex and Str is independent of whether or not armor is used for AC or DR. This is just one of the steps to move D&D towards combat simulation.

Implementing ½ Dex bonus and ½ Str bonus for swords is going to be a pain in the butt without using a computer program to track the fractions. What I would do is to average the two stats and take the bonus based on that.

Also, from your 'Weapons and Physics 101' introduction, i got the impression that bludgeoning weapons benefit from high Str... do you think it would be acurate to use Dex for every weapon, except the blunt ones? Of course, that would make all fighters want a mace instead of a sword

The simple answer is to use Dex for all light weapons attack and ½ Str bonus for damage. Use Str for all other melee weapons. If possible, allow the Str bonus for 1-handed mass arms be 1.5x instead of 1 and for 2-h mass arms use 2x Str bonus.

Will fighters then prefer mass arms and polearms over swords and two-handed swords? Maybe maybe not. Consider the fact that mass arms and polearms have a critical threat of 20 whereas swords have double the threat, 19-20.

Also I wouldn't allow mass arms to be used without a shield or secondary weapon. My experience in the SCA taught me that mass arms do a very poor job of parrying other weapons. If someone does use a mass arm as a single weapon, then they should incur attacks of opportunity just as if using their fists.