Armor -> bonus to MD treshold

[Shadowlord]

In my experience armor often becomes obsolete at higher levels, becoming more a burden than a benefit, especially heavy armor (ACP, speed, max Dex, weight...). I don't wanna change to V-W (which isn't superior IMO) as HP & Mas Dam work greatly, but armor isn't that useful in a HP system.
Thus, I want armor to provide some bonus to MD treshold aside an equipment bonus only. The question is "how much" and you have to help me here. There are two methods IMO.

1. Armor grants a bonus to MD treshold equal to 1/2 the equipment bonus.
This is easy to calculate but there are two problems. First, should magic armors that grant force bonuses and such count too? Next, some special armors like ectoplasma grant a very high def bonus but are light which causes friction (I wanted to give heavy armors a boon to compensate for their many restrictions, not to make light armor even better).

2.Armor grants a bonus to MD treshold equal to its type (light, medium or heavy.
I favor this method but don't know how much it should grant. For ex +1 for light, +2 for medium and +3 for heavy. This seems a bit too low. Doubling this amount (+2,+4,+6) makes it maybe too good if you don't forget power armor will come out soon. What about +2,+3,+5. Or +1,+3,+5 ?

HELP

 

[Shadowlord]

Any help is appreciated. But don't try to tell me it wouldn't work etc (unless you have a major argument). I just must find out how much armor would grant to MD treshold.

 

[Mistwell]

If you change armor to damage resistance, it would reduce the amount of time you would require a massive damage ("MD") check.

Of course, your complaint is about higher levels - and I don't see why the MD checks are such a concern at such higher levels (since your Fort save is better at those levels).

 

[Shadowlord]

Huh?? I didn't & don't wanna change armor to DR. I'm neither speaking about Fort saves keeping heroes alive. It's not the MD checks that are my concern, my concern is ARMOR. Indeed, with class bonuses and good Fort saves armor becomes obsolete, and THIS is what I wanna avoid by making armor slightly more attractive.

In a V-W system armor has always its uses as DR isn't negated as often as Def is in a HP system. Once you reach high attacks, you hit through most armors automatically, being left with annoying ACP, speed limits, weight... BUT if armor provides a second benefit (like a bonus to MD treshold), it has some uses left. I don't see where the problem lies; it's pretty clear.

That said, what bonus exactly should armor provide to MD treshold?

 

[Dareoon Dalandrove]

I never really thought about this before. I suppose that one the whole higher lvl heros are like those in the movies. The run around, no armor, get in huge gun battles and never take a hit. While the rookie with the vest gets capped. I would say don't mess with the MAS. While it may seem attractive at first I think that it's there to show how deadly modern weapons are. Another point to remember is that there is no Improve Crit. A question that you didn't answer in your first post was why is this so important to you? Has this become a problem? Why the need?


If you really wanted to do this I would say do the +1,+2,+3. If you are factoring magic in then that can add on.

 

[Mistwell]

Huh?? I didn't & don't wanna change armor to DR. I'm neither speaking about Fort saves keeping heroes alive. It's not the MD checks that are my concern, my concern is ARMOR. Indeed, with class bonuses and good Fort saves armor becomes obsolete, and THIS is what I wanna avoid by making armor slightly more attractive.

In a V-W system armor has always its uses as DR isn't negated as often as Def is in a HP system. Once you reach high attacks, you hit through most armors automatically, being left with annoying ACP, speed limits, weight... BUT if armor provides a second benefit (like a bonus to MD treshold), it has some uses left. I don't see where the problem lies; it's pretty clear.

That said, what bonus exactly should armor provide to MD treshold?

I know you didn't propose changing armor to DR - but *I* did because it solves the problem you are highlighting.

Now I've gotta say HUH? You said specifically you wanted armor to benefit your MD save. Then you said you are not speaking about Fort saves keeping heros alive. Those are directly contradictory statements. If you add a bonus from armor to make MD saves better, you are adding a Fort save (that's ALL you are doing). It is the same thing!

What do YOU mean by providing a bonus to MD threshold?

And, just because you are clear in your mind what you are trying to say - let me assure you it is not as clear in what you have written from my perspective. Please, help us out here - give me a clarification to what you mean by "bonus to MD threshold" if you are not concerned with Fort saves keeping heros alive, and MD checks are not your concern.

 

[Ranger REG]

If anything, I'd rather go with Ballistic Damage Reduction, Physical Damage Reduction, and Energy Damage Reduction values.

But if you're going to do this, it should be based on the material composition of the armor, NOT the equipment bonus of the armor to Defense.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Armor and bonus to MDT

If you want armor to increase the users MDT, then go with +1, +3, +5. IMO

With that said, I'd not make this change since armor is already useful. Medium and Heavy armor are for low-DEX people, while light armor or no armor is for the DEX-based user.

A 20th-level PC can max-out a to-hit around +20 BAB + 3 mastercrafted +1 focus +1 equipment +5 magic (if you allow magic). AC can top out around 10 + 9 armor + 15 def + 5 magic. So that is around +30 to-hit vs. 39 AC. A capped PC has 28 dex with magic, which is +9 AC, the same as armor (coincidence?).

I don't see the need to change armor. Dex-based PCs will have better movement, that is part of their advantage. Tough PCs will have better MTD and HP, that is part of their thing.

Anyway, it is your campaign, feel free to make tweaks as you see fit =)

 

[Mistwell]

Wait, are you the same guy over on the WOTC boards talking about level 20 "warriors" with +15 fort saves making their MAS saves too easy in this game?

 

[Shadowlord]

If you add a bonus from armor to make MD saves better, you are adding a Fort save (that's ALL you are doing).

I see you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about a bonus to the save but a bonus to the Mas Dam Treshold. For ex, if you have CON 13 and wear chainmail, this would add in some way to your MD treshold. Like having a MD treshold of 14 or 15 now.

My question simply was how MUCH it should grant. I think the +1 +3 +5 is fine (+7 for power armor ?). +1 +2 +3 is very meager.

I already wrote about the reason why I want to do this is, which is that at higher levels attack bonuses are so high that they pass through armor almost automatically, making armor pretty useless. You loose the one only benefit from it (which is Def bonus) but you keep all the restrcitions. Adding a 2nd (small) benefit like a bonus to MD treshold (which can't be ignored like a Def bonus) makes you wanna wear armor at all levels.

Man, why do I have to repeat myself so many times?