Armor -> bonus to MD treshold

[Mistwell]

I see you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about a bonus to the save but a bonus to the Mas Dam Treshold. For ex, if you have CON 13 and wear chainmail, this would add in some way to your MD treshold. Like having a MD treshold of 14 or 15 now.

That is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as damage reduction, for purposes of the MAS issue. Instead of saying the armor absorbs the first 2 points of damage, you say it increases the threshold for MAS by 2. Same net effect on the MAS issue (but my suggestion impacted HP loss as well).

I already wrote about the reason why I want to do this is, which is that at higher levels attack bonuses are so high that they pass through armor almost automatically, making armor pretty useless. You loose the one only benefit from it (which is Def bonus) but you keep all the restrcitions. Adding a 2nd (small) benefit like a bonus to MD treshold (which can't be ignored like a Def bonus) makes you wanna wear armor at all levels.

Prove it. You said initially it was "in your experience" what happens. I don't know anyone who has gotten to very high levels in this game, so I am curious. Exactly what character build gets such high attack bonues that armor becomes useless?

 

[Shadowlord]

That is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as damage reduction, for purposes of the MAS issue. Instead of saying the armor absorbs the first 2 points of damage, you say it increases the threshold for MAS by 2.

Exactly! That's why it's such a great idea IMO as it does a similar job in HP as what DR is in V-W. No need for a V-W conversion; it's all in there if you apply my idea!

I don't have to prove anything. Sorry, but I'm not gonna post lengthy stories (again). It's pretty straightforward to imagine what I was saying. Take it or leave it.

 

[Mistwell]

Exactly! That's why it's such a great idea IMO as it does a similar job in HP as what DR is in V-W. No need for a V-W conversion; it's all in there if you apply my idea!

I don't have to prove anything. Sorry, but I'm not gonna post lengthy stories (again). It's pretty straightforward to imagine what I was saying. Take it or leave it.

What are you talking about? Damage Reduction and Vitality-Wound points are not linked at all. There is no conversion necessary. You don't need a vitality-wound system to use damage reduction - in fact it is right there in the d20 Modern rules already under the Tough Hero's talents.

How are we not communicating here? I will give you an example to spell it out:

Example 1:
Armor X confers a Damage Reduction of 2. Character wearing armor X has a Con of 10. He takes 11 points of damage, which usually means his Massive Damage Threshold has been reached and he would have to make a Massive Damage saving throw vs. DC 15 or go to -1 hit points. However, the armor absorbs 2 points of damage, making the damage 9 instead of 11. Therefore he no longer needs to make a Massive Damage saving through.

Example 2:
Armor X confers a +2 bonus to Massive Damage Threshold. Character wearing armor X has a Con of 10. He takes 11 points of damage, which usually means his Massive Damage Threshold has been reached and he would have to make a Massive Damage saving throw vs. DC 15 or go to -1 hit points. However, the armor increased his Massive Damage Threshold to 12 instead of 10. Therefore he no longer needs to make a Massive Damage saving through.

There, see, same results as far as the Massive Damage issue. No conversion to anything. No would or vitality points.

I am not asking you for a story. I think you are basing your house ruling decisions on completely false assumptions. I think you are stuck in a D&D way of thinking, where people's attack bonuses reached very high numbers when their levels get high - when that is not the case in d20 Modern. Others seem to agree with me on this one. Just give me a very short, simple example of a high level character whose average attack bonus is materially higher than the average defense bonus IN D20 MODERN (and not D&D). I think you will find your assumptions are flawed.

 

[Shadowlord]

There, see, same results as far as the Massive Damage issue. No conversion to anything. No wound or vitality points.

That's what I was saying, that's why I want to use this rule.

 

[Mistwell]

That's what I was saying, that's why I want to use this rule.

Sigh. You're just not getting it, are you. You didn't even read that post all the way, did you....That comment was to say "See [BOTH EXAMPLES] result in the same thing, and [BOTH EXAMPLES] having nothing to do with wound-vitality points."

Nevermind. Do what yah want. I'm out. It's like talking to a brick wall at this point...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, always remember that you gain more than one attack, and so, while at high levels even the best armor/Dex Combination is unable to avoid getting hit at all, might still be able to avoid secondary or even "later" attacks.

Basically, I also recommend avoiding things like Damage Reduction by armor. This is very dangerous, since some (valid) character concepts might rely on the fact that they can safely use weaker weapons, which can become useless with high damage reduction values.

Adding to the massive damage threshold value might work. What numbers you should use is difficult to decide, and maybe only playtesting will show.
Starting with +1/+2/+3 to effective Con seems to be a good idea, (remember what a Tough Hero can get via Damage Reduction Talents - I don`t think equipment should be much better than a talent)

But speaking of playtesting:
Maybe first try the system as is, and if you really encounter problems, fix it then. (Maybe tell your players before about some concerns, and explain them that you might changes some rules, so, instead of instantly using any "potential rule holes" they find, they should just tell you about them, and if playing shows the holes are really holes, fix it.)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Shadowlord]

Nevermind. Do what yah want. I'm out. It's like talking to a brick wall at this point...

Same to me; you seem not to understand my point either. And I did read your entire post!
Anyway, thanks for the help.

 

[Tellerve]

I think I figured out what he means.

It isn't DR because if a bullet does say 6 pts of damage, thereby not indicating a need for a Massive Damage threat, it would just do 6 damage. If we say that it is the same then it would do 6-whatever figure we declare. What he wants it something that solely adds to the Massive Damage threshold...like the feat that adds 3 to your Massive Damage number.

If that is not what he's talking about then I have no clue

Tellerve

 

[Mistwell]

Yeah I think you're right - that's probably what he is going for.

 

[Shadowlord]

That's indeed what I always meant. Reread my posts and tell me where I said something else.