Armor Specialization (Plate)

[KarinsDad]

But the power does not include the caveat about triggering an immediate interrupt attack, nor do non-attack based powers that place marks make an attack to set that mark.

You can, RAI, RAW, by all accounts make CC attacks against those. The enemy does not know that they're going to get CC'd until the attack happens.

After that they can infer it.

The mark affects the power that allowed the Fighter to mark in the first place.

Question for you. If it is NOT allowed for the foe to know that the Fighter is going to get a free swing, is it also NOT allowed for the foe to know that it is marked? If so, why? If not, how do you explain the discrepency between the two? Does the foe know that it is marked?

 

[Goumindong]

The mark affects the power that allowed the Fighter to mark in the first place.

Question for you. If it is NOT allowed for the foe to know that the Fighter is going to get a free swing, is it also NOT allowed for the foe to know that it is marked? If so, why? If not, how do you explain the discrepency between the two? Does the foe know that it is marked?

Man what?

The mark is an effect, like slow, like immobilized etc.

Lets say that you're facing an enemy that has two attack powers. One of them immobilizes and one of them can only be targeted at a target that is immobilized.

do you let the player know all the details of the power that can only be used on the immobilized character as soon as it is immobilized?

A: No, you do not. Why? Because the power that requires an immobilized character as a trigger has not been used yet.

Lets have another example

"Being adjacent to the fighter affects the powers that the fighter uses, therefor any enemy that is adjacent to the fighter instantly knows its entire attack set since any of those moves might be used on him and they couldn't be used on him if he wasn't adjacent"

 

[Ryujin]

You know that you've been marked. You know that you've been cursed. You know that you've been Hunter's Quarried. You might not know what the effect of that is, but you know when someone mutters something and you feel a chill up your spine, when someone is tracking you with particular attention, or when some galoot in chain is trash-talking right in front of you.

 

[KarinsDad]

Man what?

The mark is an effect, like slow, like immobilized etc.

The only reason the creature knows that it is affected by a condition is the following rule:

Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you’ve done to it and what conditions you’ve imposed.

This is not automatic without this rule to tell people how this works.

So, we have this rule that tells the creature not only that it is marked, but it also tells the creature exactly what was done to it.

So my point is, if you use this rule to inform the creature that is marked, you must also inform the creature "exactly what you've done to it".

If you use a different rule to inform the creature that it is marked, please quote the rule.

My question boiled down to: How do you inform the creature that it is marked without using this rule? If you do use this rule, how do justify using it to inform of the mark WITHOUT informing of all aspects of the mark when the rule states otherwise?

Your POV sidesteps this rule for some aspects of CC (the free attack), but not all aspects of CC (the mark), without stating HOW you sidestep it.


Basically, you are chosing when and how to ignore aspects of this rule and I want to know what your justification is for doing so.

If on the other hand you are not using this rule and you claim that CC is not a power, then how does the creature even know it is marked because the mark portion of CC is also not a power? Which rule are you using to inform the creature of the mark?

 

[Goumindong]

My question boiled down to: How do you inform the creature that it is marked without using this rule? If you do use this rule, how do justify using it to inform of the mark WITHOUT informing of all aspects of the mark when the rule states otherwise?

The free attack is not an aspect of the mark in the same way that any attack a fighter might attack you with is not an aspect of being adjacent to the fighter

How many times do i have to explain this to you?

What does the mark do?

It imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks that do not include the fighter as a target. That is all they know. They do not know that the fighter has another ability that will punish them if they disobey the mark because that ability is not a function of the mark. It is a function of an immediate interrupt ability that triggers when a marked target does something specific.

Here is another example. Monsters do not know that getting hit with a fighters OA ill stop their movement UNTIL they get hit with the OA. The mere ability of them to provoke the OA[trigger it] does not immediately grant them the knowledge of what it does in the same way that the mere ability of a monster to get combat challenged does not immediately grant them the knowledge that its going to happen or what the damage is going to be.

 

[webrunner]

So my point is, if you use this rule to inform the creature that is marked, you must also inform the creature "exactly what you've done to it".

My question boiled down to: How do you inform the creature that it is marked without using this rule? If you do use this rule, how do justify using it to inform of the mark WITHOUT informing of all aspects of the mark when the rule states otherwise?

IT knows what you've done to it. What you have done to it is caused the "Marked" condition.

It doesn't know what you're GOING to do to it.

Note, that this is different then, say, the Swordmage or Paladin marks, which are explictly part of the special mark effect. Being marked by other means don't have the rider.


To put it in another perspective, if you multiclass into Warden as a Paladin, and use the group mark on all the targets, you don't get Divine Challenge radiant damage. It is a different ability. If you multiclass into Warden as a fighter, and use the group mark, you still get your attack if they try to shift. That is built into the fighter, and not the method of marking.

If a bard uses it's special "mark someone by someone else" power, the monster wouldn't know about combat challenge then.. the fighter wasn't even involved in the attack other than being a secondary target! But Combat Challenge doesn't differentiate between ways in which the target is marked- it only cares whether the target is marked or not.

That the fighter can whack you is not a condition imposed on the monster by a power the fighter has. It's an ability the fighter has that depends on marked targets.


Yet another way:
IF it was worded something like, "Whenever you mark a creature, if that creature-" that would be a condition imposed on the creature at the time of the mark, but it's not, it says "Whenever a creature who is marked by you-"

Nothing happens to the creature except being marked when it's marked. So it doesn't know about combat challenge.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'm not seeing it. I went to the optimization forum and did not find a 180 DPR Fighter there.

Maybe you could enlighten us.

Saint of Killers: Tempest/Student of Caiphon/Punisher of the Gods (311.65 dpr) build - Page 2 - Wizards Community

300-odd dpr. A ridiculous build to be sure, but that's the sort of spread that is technically possible.

Unfortunately I can't find where the "list of highest fighter DPRs" is, as it has a dual-wielding weapon talent fighter that hits 200 IIRC, which is slightly more towards the "things that actually might be playable".

I am playing, currently, a fighter in plate mail with a heavy shield. He is a dwarf, he has 27 AC at level 8[+2 layered platemail]. He has distracting shield, 15 constitution, and 20 wisdom. He had devoted Challenge and dwarven weapon training. He is wielding a +3 Waraxe and does 1d12+16 per hit on a combat challenge[+20 to attack, expertise was free]. At level 10, he will be taking fast running because he is out of heroic tier feats he needs[and +2 speed when charging is kinda nice to let me get more attacks in].

His AC is literally as high as anyones can get at this point and will be getting higher when he moves into pit fighter and picks up plate specialization. There is no chance that anyone is going to think "oh man, its totally a good idea to attack the wizard instead of the fighter" because I am going to ruin their day if they do it. If someone was doing half as much Damage/attack as i was they still probably wouldn't do it, because they would still get their day ruined.[A 20 str fighter would be doing, with a bastard sword and the same other values as me 1d10+11 on a CC with an attack bonus of 18 on his CC, still a respectable 16.5 avg dmg/hit with a high attack bonus

A low AC for the level you are at is around 21 (14 + 6 for a 22 stat, +1 armor), so we're looking at a 6 point spread.

A mage of that level who doesn't put much into con will have 42 hitpoints. You have 78.

If a hobgoblin hand of bane is pinned between you and the wizard, he will, on average, cause 57.5% of a healing surge worth of damage to the wizard on a hit. He will cause 18.2% of a healing surge worth of damage to you on a hit. Provoking an attack from you will cause him 36.6% of a surge worth of damage.

Now, I'll do something wierd, but I think it's sound in terms of working out a metric. I'm going to subtract the healing surge percentage he takes in damage from the healing surge percentage that he deals to the wizard. We end up with 20.9%, which is greater than the metric for attacking you (18.2%).

Hence he's slightly better off attacking the wizard (assuming you and the wizard have roughly identical value as tactical targets).

If your average damage was 2 points higher, then he's better off attacking you.

If your AC increases by 2 points, then you need to get your average damage to 27.5 (ie - 5 points higher) to make attacking you the attractive choice.

All of this is with his at-will btw.

Edit: Whoops, missed distracting shield. That changes our resultant metric to ~9.3% (because he now only causes 0.46% of a surge to the wizard, assuming that you always hit, just to make the maths easier), which means he is better off attacking you with his at-will.

However with his special, he's better off attacking the wizard again (the metric for attacking the wizard is 31.3% and the metric for attacking you is 26%). And that doesn't include the stun.


Incidentally - my position is that a foe knows that he's marked. I would leave it up to the PC to determine whether the foe knows the exact consequence of the mark (I imagine most fighters want their foe to know that they'll get attacked for breaking it).

 

[Saeviomagy]

Irrelevant to the point (and in fact, it's not a rule that monsters know about criticals).

I find it odd that you're arguing that a monster doesn't know he's been crit, but that he does know the consequences for being marked, given how much information he has about each event.

The point was that the monster does not know whether a 20 point attack was a high damage for the hit attack or a low damage for the hit attack.

And it doesn't matter - the monster will respond to the information that he has, and over time those responses will be appropriate to the average damage the fighter causes.

 

[Elric]

A low AC for the level you are at [level 8] is around 21 (14 + 6 for a 22 stat, +1 armor), so we're looking at a 6 point spread.

A mage of that level who doesn't put much into con will have 42 hitpoints. You have 78.

Once again, you've got the hit point math wrong. A level 8 wizard has a base of 38 + Con HP, meaning that with a typical Constitution of 12 he's going to have 50 HP, not 42 as you've indicated. There's no way he'll have below 46 HP under point-buy.

 

[KarinsDad]

The free attack is not an aspect of the mark in the same way that any attack a fighter might attack you with is not an aspect of being adjacent to the fighter

How many times do i have to explain this to you?

You have to explain it once so that it makes sense if you want to be taken seriously.

You keep claiming that it is not an aspect of the mark, but you don't quote a rule that says that it is not an aspect of the mark for the Fighter, but is an aspect of the mark for the Paladin.

Also, it takes radiant damage equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier the first time it makes an attack that doesn’t include you as a target before the start of your next turn.

In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.

What difference is there between a Fighter Combat Challenge and a Paladin Divine Challenge with regard to this rule?

Answer: The Fighter can choose to not do his additional attack, the Paladin cannot choose to not do the additional damage without unmarking the foe.

It imposes a -2 penalty on all attacks that do not include the fighter as a target. That is all they know. They do not know that the fighter has another ability that will punish them if they disobey the mark because that ability is not a function of the mark. It is a function of an immediate interrupt ability that triggers when a marked target does something specific.

Funny. I can say the EXACT same thing about the Paladin's mark. The damage is a function of an immediate interrupt that triggers when a marked target does something specific.

IT knows what you've done to it. What you have done to it is caused the "Marked" condition.

It doesn't know what you're GOING to do to it.

No? Where is the rule for this? It doesn't know this for the Paladin Divine Challenge either?

For example, when a paladin uses divine challenge against an enemy, the enemy knows that it has been marked and that it will therefore take a penalty to attack rolls and some damage if it attacks anyone aside from the paladin.

The rules disagree with your "it doesn't know what you're going to do to it" idea.

The rules explicitly state that the monster knows exactly what is going to happen if it takes a specific set of actions.


The problem with the opposing POV is that the subtle differences between Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge that you are claiming are not hard explicit rules. The rules do not make these claims, the posters do.