Armor Spikes: Unpractical?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not impossible...just a lot more expensive and less available or reliable (esp. if what repels one critter doesn't repel them all) than getting a bunch of spikes attached to one's armor.

Spikes would be the first and cheapest anti big-enough-to-eat-you-whole beast repellent available.

I accept that you believe that, but you have put forth no argument that actually makes it true.

Sure I have- basic form:

1) Fighter gets an idea and goes to his armorer- "I'm going to fight a big creature with a big mouth that could swallow me up in one or two nibbles- could you put some porcupine-like spikes on my armor so it won't do that?" No research is required- the armorer (really almost any armorer) can make the armor as spikey as the fighter wants.

2) Fighter gets an idea and goes to his alchemist- "I'm going to fight a big creature with a big mouth that could swallow me up in one or two nibbles- can you come up with some kind of repellent, expectorant, or other kind of goop to put on my armor so it won't do that?" To answer the fighter, the alchemist (or one of his predecessors) will have to do research- either empirical work in the field or magical- to determine what things actually repel the critter in question, if it is possible to put that stuff into an effective goop, if that goop can be applied to armor, and how much is needed to be effective. There may even be a trail of dead assistants who helped find that info out.

And not every alchemist will have or be willing to share this info with his colleagues, making availability of the goop hit or miss.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Sure I have- basic form:

1) Fighter gets an idea and goes to his armorer- "I'm going to fight a big creature with a big mouth that could swallow me up in one or two nibbles- could you put some porcupine-like spikes on my armor so it won't do that?" No research is required- the armorer (really almost any armorer) can make the armor as spikey as the fighter wants.

Armourer has to experiment to determine how best to make and attach said spikes, as well as to make them hinder the fighter as little as possible. This research requires the use of raw materials, and costs. If the armourer is to make truly porcupine-like spikes, they need to be able to be raised and lowered as needed, so as to not get into the way when not needed. Of course, this isn't strictly necessary.

How effective any set of spikes will be at deterring said big creature......well, that's research, too, but research that leaves a string of dead fighters instead of dead assistants.

2) Fighter gets an idea and goes to his alchemist- "I'm going to fight a big creature with a big mouth that could swallow me up in one or two nibbles- can you come up with some kind of repellent, expectorant, or other kind of goop to put on my armor so it won't do that?" To answer the fighter, the alchemist (or one of his predecessors) will have to do research- either empirical work in the field or magical- to determine what things actually repel the critter in question, if it is possible to put that stuff into an effective goop, if that goop can be applied to armor, and how much is needed to be effective. There may even be a trail of dead assistants who helped find that info out.

The alchemist has no more research to do than the armourer. He has some ideas of the nature of foul-tasting chemicals, and some idea of how these might be bonded to armour. Moreover, the alchemist can determine the effectiveness of his product by a series of field tests....exactly the same way the armourer does so.

Moreover, once the alchemist has this product, it will be a superior product to the spikes in many ways, and one which can be combined with spikes if the client so desires. Certainly, his pockets will be filled.

And not every alchemist will have or be willing to share this info with his colleagues, making availability of the goop hit or miss.

Like sunrods, tanglefoot bags, various kinds of weapons and armour, etc., etc., etc. In D&D under the RAW, apparently no one even hides the secrets to making their most powerful magic items, let along simple alchemy. Even the effects of a tanglefoot bag, released when the creature tries to swallow the wearer, coupled with some bright colours, would train monsters in a given area not to swallow those in that sort of garb. It would have the added benefit of allowing the alchemist and his unarmoured buddies to mimic the colouration so that they, too, would appear unappetizing.

Once again, I accept that you believe that spikes would be the first and cheapest anti big-enough-to-eat-you-whole beast repellent available, and that you can imagine a scenario in which that is true, but you have put forth no argument that actually makes it true.

RC

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Alchemist vs Armorer:

The armorer needs to know how to make metal spikey and how to attach it to other metal. That's nothing- he does that all day. He could probably do it correctly the first time he was asked- the real work in armory is in learning how to shape metal into the graceful curves of armor while retaining metal's hardness...without it getting too soft or too brittle. He deals with a narrow range of alloys suitable for use in armor & weapons- routinely traded materials (essentially, the class of goods called "commodities") he's going to have on hand 99% of the time. Its so simple a task there are no rules for setting a DC for an armorer to attach something like this to armor. The Craft: Weaponsmithing DC for adding armor spikes is DC15, and can be done by anyone with the skill, even a commoner.

In comparison, besides all the other things the alchemist knows, in this instance, he will need to know which chemicals, poisons or toxins will be effective repellents to the critter in question. Just because a chemical tastes or smells bad doesn't mean it will be an effective repellent. Arguably, that that knowledge belongs more in the area of skills like Herbalism Knowledge: Nature than Alchemy, or at the very least, there would be a synergistic relationship here. Those chemicals may be common or rare- he may even have to send someone out into to retrieve them (the above cited Corpse blossoms in the lich tomb, for instance). And then, once the Alchemist has the knowlege and materials on hand...he has to make a DC check to actually mix the stuff into a usable form. The Craft: Alchemy DC for a simple Acid is 15; 20 for Alchemist's fire, smokesticks, or tindertwigs; and 25 for Antitoxins, sunrods, tanglefoot bags and thunderstones...AND you have to be a spellcaster to make any of those. I'm sure Oswalt's Patent Dragon Repellent would have a higher DC than 25. Something like that may even be outside of the scope of the Craft: Alchemy skill and into the realm of the Brew Potion Feat or an Artificer's Infusion.

So, yes, I'm pretty sure Armor spikes would be the first and the cheapest form of anti- eat me tech in most realities.

And not every alchemist will have or be willing to share this info with his colleagues, making availability of the goop hit or miss.

Like sunrods, tanglefoot bags, various kinds of weapons and armour, etc., etc., etc. In D&D under the RAW, apparently no one even hides the secrets to making their most powerful magic items, let along simple alchemy.

Consider- the cost of armor spikes is 50GP.

An alchemical substance capable of repelling a dragon- even for a few seconds is at least an order of magnitude more valuable than a sunrod, akin to the value of a potion at the very minimum- 200GP+.

Besides, I don't know how you run your game, but I've yet to see a DM let his players buy anything they can find a price for assuming they have the GP for it.