D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Piratecat]

I think 5e point buy is pretty fast. By eliminating options above 15, I'm finding fewer options for egregious min-maxing.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This is a really foreign concept to me, because I feel the reverse. Standard array feels like I'm playing a NPC, someone identical to everyone else at the table. Rolled stats feels like my own PC, and point buy is probably the best compromise for me, as it allows lots of variation within fair boundaries. .

You and me both, for the exact same reasons. The very nature of conformity doesn't exactly lend towards uniqueness. I've never once had a character concept in my mind and thought, "Dang, now it just feels like I'm running an NPC rather than my own character because I rolled a 17 for strength instead of my array 15 like every other fighter."

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I think 5e point buy is pretty fast. By eliminating options above 15, I'm finding fewer options for egregious min-maxing.

In 3e, there was a certain temptation to try and squeeze out 17 or 18 for your primary and see if you soft points could be mitigated. But maybe a 16 is good enough? Lots of choices.

In 5e, your primary is usually 15 or 14, depending on the race you had in mind. Unless you are such a detailed planner that you need to plan out that "half feat" choice at level 8, the biggest decision is straightforward, and that shrinks the decision space by a lot.

For people who really dislike the fiddly factor, I bet your DM can pregen 12 arrays to lay in front of you, and you can pick one -- that s/he "secretly" used a point buy table is not something you need to think about.

 

[overgeeked]

You and me both, for the exact same reasons. The very nature of conformity doesn't exactly lend towards uniqueness. I've never once had a character concept in my mind and thought, "Dang, now it just feels like I'm running an NPC rather than my own character because I rolled a 17 for strength instead of my array 15 like every other fighter."

Another straw man. Not every fighter takes the 15 Str. There are Dex-based fighters. There's also racial modifiers to apply before you start play, so even with an array, chances are no two fighters will have the exact same Str score, unless they both pick +2 Str races. Besides, having the same stat in the same spot as another character, even one of the same class, doesn't make you identical. There's also the equipment choice, the fighting style choice, the martial archetype choice, then alignment, languages, personal characteristics, ideals, bonds, flaws, backgrounds, then multiclassing and feats to consider. All of which customizes and distinguishes the characters is subtle and not-so-subtle ways. But nope. Every array-based fighter is exactly the same as every other array-based fighter.

 

[Piratecat]

Overgeeked, there is a polite way to disagree, and instead you're ignoring it in favor of being as pugnacious and confrontative as you can be. Cut it out. I've got no patience for the sarcasm, and if you do it again to anyone I'm booting you from the thread. Someone disagreeing with you is not an attack on you, so quit trying to attack them back.

This is not debatable, and I don't want to discuss it in this thread. PM me if you wish to. Meanwhile, I'll suggest you put people on "ignore" if you can't avoid arguing with them, and then use the site to have fun.

 

[Piratecat]

Not every fighter takes the 15 Str. There are Dex-based fighters. There's also racial modifiers to apply before you start play, so even with an array, chances are no two fighters will have the exact same Str score, unless they both pick +2 Str races. Besides, having the same stat in the same spot as another character, even one of the same class, doesn't make you identical. There's also the equipment choice, the fighting style choice, the martial archetype choice, then alignment, languages, personal characteristics, ideals, bonds, flaws, backgrounds, then multiclassing and feats to consider. All of which customizes and distinguishes the characters is subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

To address the content and not the sarcasm: certainly lots of things differentiate a character, from race and class to skills, feats, backgrounds and clever character history. The identical starting stats bother me too, though, breaking my suspension of disbelief. Everyone starting with identical stat arrays feels weird to me. Not weird enough not to use them as a starting basis for point buy, though.

 

[Thank Dog]

Standard array feels like I'm playing a NPC, someone identical to everyone else at the table.

I've never advocated standard array.

That said, individual stats play a much bigger role nowadays than they used to. I'd hesitate before rolling nowadays.

In 1e/2e, short of getting a 16+, the ability scores had very little impact on anything other than qualifying you for a particular class. But now, all those +1's and -1's matter.

Regardless, I still didn't like rolling even in 1e/2e. One of the very first things I did as a 13 year old learning D&D was to invent my own point-buy system. And so far I haven't seen any compelling reason to use anything other than a point-buy system. In fact in my experience pretty much the only reason it always seems to come down to is, "Because I wanna chance at getting UBER STATS!"

 

[Elric]

This is a cool way to generate stats. What we do at my table is similar to this, except that we put the stats in a set (so if Bob rolled a 9, 11, 14, 13, 17, 10, that's one set, Alice has hers with a 12, 12, 15, 9, 11, 10), and anyone can pick whatever set they want. John can pick his set, Bob's set, Alice's set, or Jane's set, and everyone else can pick whatever one they want.

I favor point-buy but I like that this helps avoid imbalance.

I see two issues with this: first, the best of, say, 5 sets of ability scores is frequently obvious and everyone will pick it. Then everyone has the same set of stats. Second, characters are going to have quite a bit higher stats than usual. That could cause slight balance issues (e.g., if the "best array" is 16, 16, 16, 15, 12, 8, it favors classes with multiple-attribute dependency, or just that characters are stronger than usual).

What if the DM offered the choice of 27 point-buy, or a few pre-set arrays that would be "worth" a bit more than 27 points on point buy but may be less optimized (e.g., 15, 13, 13, 13, 11, 10)? It might have the same issue that one stat array was clearly best, but the DM could choose comparable arrays so that it is less likely.

 

[dd.stevenson]

However, are you sure that in 5e stats are supposed to matter less? Bounded accuracy has put a limit on how stats can effects rolls, but at the same time the designers have talked extensively about making the 6 abilities more central to the game than before.

I'm certain the current role of stats in 5E is intentional, if that's what you're asking.

However I may not understand what you're getting at--I don't think I implied the designers had promised stats would matter less. (To the contrary: far as I know, they have not.)

 

[Xorne]

I'm coming in late, but I'll chip in that I prefer point-buy over random rolls as well. I played with random rolls a lot, and most of the time, people ended up with similar stats to point buy arrays. Occasionally though, someone would have just a stupidly powerful array (18, 17, 16, 16, 15, 12, pre-race bonuses), while someone else ends up with +2 net across 6 stats. Yes, those cases are outliers, and yes, the other four players fell in the same ranges that point buy provided.

Since I really don't like the outliers (in either direction), I just use point buy. The above power-array was a hassle--challenging that character meant potentially killing the weak array player. Yes, that was 3E, where stats really, really mattered. In 1E/2E, stats had very little impact in your overall character, and in 5E, a 20 stat cap means that you can't get that far ahead of someone with lower rolls.

But again, most of the random arrays end up about the same as point buy arrays, and if I just use point buy arrays, I don't have those outliers anymore.