D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[GMforPowergamers]

Sorry, but it can make you look and sound petty and jealous.

only if you are trying to muddy the water (or poison the well) with personal insults instead of addressing the problem

Especially when the complaint you see as 100% valid the rest of the table does not agree with.

ok, so if half the table agrees, or the whole table as in many of my examples... then what?

You remember that one time the cleric weighed with his mace and killed 6 goblins. But you forget the times that the cleric had to stay in the back and support with spells when your fighter saved the day.

and we are back to "You did have fun and your complaint is just made up..."

think this through, just for a moment, if what you say is true why would he complain about 1 encounter once? If the cleric has melee in for 5 levels and 9 out of 10 fights made a better fighter (higher to hit and higher damage and spells on top of that with the same AC and close if not the same or more hp)

NO ONE COMPLAINS WHEN THEY ARE HAVING FUN... but I notice your examples are all of people who don't have a problem making one up...

People perceive and remember things different. Some people remember more when they felt their character was being outclassed and focus more on the negatives then the positives.

and some people stay quite and go year long campaigns not having fun but dealing with it
and some people walk out and make an excuse "Um my wife needs me home on game night"
and some people have A real complaint...

how do you tell the difference? and what do you do when the complain has merit?

Because presumably you are asking the campaign to stop because you want a new character.

sometimes... the azrethal show and the paladien warlock games both went to hell because paul was WAY too powerful and everyone agreed. IN my 1st 4e game we let half the players re draw there stats to be on par with the other half, and asked 2 of 5 players to swap out weapon expertise.... in the game I was the spell fire I retired the character. In the game I was Antra I redrew the character way less powerful.... in my last 3.5 game we all remade our character 7 levels in...

It really depends then how you expect the problem to be fixed.

I expect the group to talk about it and find a way... each situation is different. maybe throwing an extra +3 item in or a belt of magnificent might help with the knowledge it was going to a character... or maybe the powerful one needs to tone it down... or maybe just redraw the character same story different stats (powerful out lier or weak outlier) or maybe you start a new campaing... what ever works best for EVERYONE...

In the example of the cleric and the fighter what is your plan to fix the problem? The group is say 5th level everyone has a character they like and enjoy except apparently you.

well I guess if everyone else has no problem I would just ask if I could up my str to match the clerics... of course that assumeing no one else had the exact same thought I did...

All the characters have important background that intertwine and have a great chemistry and history together that matters to the campaign at large (I say that because that's how I run all my games).

ok, and how much of that changes if we let or make 1 person re giggy there stats? none... that what I thought.

The group does what it can to showcase your character just like they do every character because that's what good groups do. You still feel that the cleric being better at melee then your fighter detracts from your enjoyment. You have voiced this to the group and me your DM wants to know what you want to do to fix the problem. So, what in your mind is the solution?

again it depends on the group... default first suggestion would be everyone redo there stats point but then continue... if that isn't good, then average the party stats and redo point buying to that level, if that isn't good ask the cleric to step back and use more spells and less melee, if that isn't good then give the fighter a belt of magnifacents +4, if that doesn't work then ask the whole group for suggestions... and maybe SO

 

[Umbran]

I call it like I see it. Wasn't trying to be personally offensive to anyone...;

You are relatively new here, so I am cutting you a bit of slack. In general - don't argue with the mod in-thread. Please take it up in e-mail of PM. I will clarify a couple of things here, but beyond this, please take further thoughts out of the thread:

The fact of the matter is that, whether your were trying or not, you achieved offending people. I might suggest that your aim should now be to avoid that in the future, rather than to try to justify it.

The real point is buried in that "like I see it". As a gamer, you are incredibly unlikely to have a wide enough experience to speak to the *MILLIONS* of gamers out there. This is basic statistics and representative sampling. So, how you see it probably isn't good enough to support casting aspersions on others. Presenting "how I see it" as "the trust" is a common failing of logic, and I suggest you avoid that going forward, especially when it leads to you saying things that are so uncomplimentary.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Ah. Right. You know, that "But it is Teh Troof!" is one of the top defenses we see for rude behavior? If you are really that correct, your correctness will shine though, even while you are being considerate about how you present it to your fellows.

If you need to tear down others to make your point, then your point probably isn't nearly so solid as you may think. And claims that you have some end-all, be-all understanding of gaming that others somehow lack is going to come off as condescending and arrogant. It will come across that way because it *is* condescending and arrogant.

The biggest sign of a poor player is...

...the need to insult people to support their own playstyle as superior to others.

Please stop casting aspersions on how others choose to play. EN World, overall, does not accept the existence of One True Way to play, and claims of the form, "You don't like it the way I do, so you are somehow lesser" are not acceptable behavior. It is, simply, rude. So please stop.

 

[spinozajack]

Not changing my opinion because a moderator disagrees with me.

I'll just avoid discussing this topic further. If D&D forums can't acknowledge that there exists a lot of immaturity in this hobby, it's in worse shape than I thought out there.

The actual topic of this thread is "I feel like I'm being punished for being told to roll dice in a DICE ROLLING GAME". I mean, seriously.

 

[Crothian]

again it depends on the group... default first suggestion would be everyone redo there stats point but then continue... if that isn't good, then average the party stats and redo point buying to that level, if that isn't good ask the cleric to step back and use more spells and less melee, if that isn't good then give the fighter a belt of magnifacents +4, if that doesn't work then ask the whole group for suggestions... and maybe SO

I'm just going to the answer and ignoring all the other tangent things in your post.

Your solutions are to either change everyon'e characters to fit one player. So, this solution is basically punishing the rest of the group. Next you want to have one player change his character and say that what you want is more important then what he wants. Or to give your character a magical item of pretty impressive power that he did not earn. Those are not the best solutions. All of them you are putting your own needs above that of the group.

Honestly as a DM none of these are fair options to the rest of the group. What I would do is put in the campaign a legend of the magical item the player wants to seek and have them adventure for it. Then if they were able to get it and the rest of the party agreed he could have it then he would.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm just going to the answer and ignoring all the other tangent things in your post.

you ignore the entire point... that you need to look at it from other points of view and that your senerio (only 1 person out of 5, 6 or 7 sees the imbalance) is far from the only scenero... you ingonred the entire point.

Your solutions are to either change everyon'e characters to fit one player.

if they agree... funny how you cut out the 'talk about it and brain strom' part and they rip apart the idea... almost like you don't want to deal with the scenario

So, this solution is basically punishing the rest of the group.

wait... playing with lower stats is punishment... I thought your whole argument went against that...

Next you want to have one player change his character and say that what you want is more important then what he wants.

yes I even went on to explain when I was the player in question unbalanceing the game my first thought was to fix it at my end (the higher power) but again you ignored that to focus on a narrative where I am the bad guy... instead of looking at he whole post where I was talking comprmise and adult conversation...

Or to give your character a magical item of pretty impressive power that he did not earn. Those are not the best solutions. All of them you are putting your own needs above that of the group.

that was actually me stealing that idea from someone on your side of the argument I just made it the belt instead of a +X sword... someone on your side argueing for rolling a page or two back said ifyou didn't complain (although how you communicate a problem without stating it still goes over my head) he would give you better magic items...

Honestly as a DM none of these are fair options to the rest of the group.

unless the whole group saw the same problem...

What I would do is put in the campaign a legend of the magical item the player wants to seek and have them adventure for it. Then if they were able to get it and the rest of the party agreed he could have it then he would.

so my fighter hears a legend about a dungeon with a set of mits that make me as strong as a giant... I have to go multi games (still not having fun) to get to them, and then when we get there, the cleric could still take the gauntlets of str +6... and have a bigger advantage.... um how is that at all fair? it sounds like you wouldn't try to help at all


edit: what you ignored

ok, so if half the table agrees, or the whole table as in many of my examples... then what?

so since you will only talk about if 1 out of your players has a problem, you are ignoreing this whole idea

and we are back to "You did have fun and your complaint is just made up..."

think this through, just for a moment, if what you say is true why would he complain about 1 encounter once? If the cleric has melee in for 5 levels and 9 out of 10 fights made a better fighter (higher to hit and higher damage and spells on top of that with the same AC and close if not the same or more hp)

NO ONE COMPLAINS WHEN THEY ARE HAVING FUN... but I notice your examples are all of people who don't have a problem making one up...

the whole argument ocmes down to you not beliving the complaint to begin with... so maybe this shouldn't be ignored///

how do you tell the difference? and what do you do when the complain has merit?

this was me addressing you saying the complaint had no merit... but you never answered how you know if it did or not, and what you do when it does have merit...

sometimes... the azrethal show and the paladien warlock games both went to hell because paul was WAY too powerful and everyone agreed. IN my 1st 4e game we let half the players re draw there stats to be on par with the other half, and asked 2 of 5 players to swap out weapon expertise.... in the game I was the spell fire I retired the character. In the game I was Antra I redrew the character way less powerful.... in my last 3.5 game we all remade our character 7 levels in...

ignoreing multi examples of how things were handled... including when the more powerful character agreed there was a problem....

I expect the group to talk about it and find a way... each situation is different. maybe throwing an extra +3 item in or a belt of magnificent might help with the knowledge it was going to a character... or maybe the powerful one needs to tone it down... or maybe just redraw the character same story different stats (powerful out lier or weak outlier) or maybe you start a new campaing... what ever works best for EVERYONE...

and of course anything that is a discussion of handling thing reasonable got cut why again....

well I guess if everyone else has no problem I would just ask if I could up my str to match the clerics... of course that assumeing no one else had the exact same thought I did...



ok, and how much of that changes if we let or make 1 person re giggy there stats? none... that what I thought.

 

[Crothian]

you ignore the entire point.

Honestly, the posts you make are so long and you just take apart each sentence of my own posts that it is kind of difficult to get exactly what your point is. The analogies are not helping out and the examples of past characters that you and other people have mentioned don't aid in the conversation either. But what I think it comes down to is you don't like rolling up characters. Which is that's why there is of course fine that's why the other options exist. Good gaming.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Honestly, the posts you make are so long and you just take apart each sentence of my own posts that it is kind of difficult to get exactly what your point is. The analogies are not helping out and the examples of past characters that you and other people have mentioned don't aid in the conversation either. But what I think it comes down to is you don't like rolling up characters. Which is that's why there is of course fine that's why the other options exist. Good gaming.

then let me make this very simple it has gone beyond rolls and point buy...

when a friend or fellow player is not having fun they should be allowed to tell the DM without being told they are being a bad player or having a character flaw (like sour grapes) and that everyone is entitled to one thing and one thing only... RESPECT

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Once again... something can be fun sometimes and not others... and something can get on your nerves no matter what it is... AND NO ONE COMPLAINS WHEN THEY ARE HAVING FUN...

Absolutely true.

to put it another way... I don't like very spicey food, but we have a place in town that makes a spicey burger I eat but don't love... if every Saturday night my friends wanted to eat there, I would do so fine the first week, and say nothing (the burger is good) the second week I would mostly just say 'didn't we do that last week' and eat another spicy burger... on week 3 if everyone wanted to do it I would complain "I don't want to eat there, lets do something different this week," but if everyone agreed I would go aling... if at the end of the month someone said lets do that place again I would be mad... they were not paying attention to me at all. I was no longer having fun at our group activity... It is well in my rights to complain that I want to do something different.

The limitation of the analogy, as you're no doubt aware, is that you can change where you eat at any time, but a character's stat gen is forever...which is also part of the problem. With eating, you can change locales and get something you genuinely enjoy.

But with RPGs, the initial parts of PCGEN are eternal, generally speaking. You get what you got, and proceed from that starting point. If you don't like the results, there is usually no way to really let off steam if you don't care for the results... At least, not within the framework of THAT PC.

when people say "Well I like the spicy restaurant and I don't see why you don't" they are missing a major point of friendship... I wouldn't complain if I was enjoying it... so we need to compromise, and if your compromise is "I said so, we do it my way or get out" you are a lousy friend...

Compromise is not a one way street, and not all situations lend themselves to compromise. If a GM really, truly prefers one method of stat generation for his campaigns, perhaps the only solution IS to play it his way or not play...in HIS campaigns. You're always free to GM a game yourself or sit things out until someone else runs a game. Which, FWIW, is what we do in our group.

Also FWIW, more than a couple GMs in our group don't give a damn about stat generation, and let each player choose whatever method they want. Players are on an honor system, with the caveat that if the DM thinks a PC's stats are too high or low, the PC gets tossed.

if someone says "I am not having fun playing my weaker character" it isn't your place to tell them they should have made it more fun... they are saying the GAME isn't fun, so either change the game or make some compromise... don't insult them...

No, the plain meaning of the words there indicates to me they're saying they're not having fun due to a power discrepancy within the PCs in the game, not necessarily the game itself.

If they said "I am not having fun playing my character because the game's design makes the choice I made to play X inferior in all ways to playing Y", your conclusion would be more correct*, but the question remains "then why did you choose X instead of Y, the option you deem superior?"

well I guess if everyone else has no problem I would just ask if I could up my str to match the clerics... of course that assumeing no one else had the exact same thought I did...

Which, depending on the edition of D&D you're playing, either helps quite a bit or- in certain D20 iterations- is like putting a bandaid on a compound fracture, because the feats & spells available to spellcasters will let a player so inclined out-fighter a fighter.

(Of which I'll say this: even though we have players in our group perfectly capable of designing such PCs, none has done so as yet. Speaking only for myself, it's because I have zero interest in that kind of caster.)




* for example, a person playing a high-level melee warrior type in a party with an optimized CoDzilla.

 

[Crothian]

then let me make this very simple it has gone beyond rolls and point buy...

when a friend or fellow player is not having fun they should be allowed to tell the DM without being told they are being a bad player or having a character flaw (like sour grapes) and that everyone is entitled to one thing and one thing only... RESPECT

Players of course have the ability to tell the DM they are not having fun. However, unless you are setting up a safe zone free from criticism then there is the possibility that they will in turn be criticized back. It's just human nature. As for respect, basic respect should be given to most people but respect is earned.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Players of course have the ability to tell the DM they are not having fun. However, unless you are setting up a safe zone free from criticism then there is the possibility that they will in turn be criticized back. It's just human nature. As for respect, basic respect should be given to most people but respect is earned.

it is not human nature to respond to "I am not having fun because of X, Y and Z" with "I't your fault because of A, B and C, now do it my wy or shut up and go home" that is the bully way not the human one...

respect is something given... it can be earned, but at it's most basic, if you think your friends around the table need to do anything to earn being treated like an adult who's thoughts feelings and opinions matter... I just don't get you...