D&D 5E (2014) Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[S'mon]

How does a topic like this make it to nearly 60 pages? The games you participate in are private...

No, all my games are in public. (3 at the London D&D Meetup, 1 online in Dragonsfoot chat).

I do play in a private game, but I haven't GM'd in private since ca 2006.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

Wow. Just...do you really have to add this sort of thing?

Wow, yes, your whole shtick, is yet another obnoxious, 4th Ed zealot's attempt to undermine 5th Ed, go away.

 

[pemerton]

Rolling stats adds some character build variety to the game. With point buy, there is an optimal selection (for the primary stats at least) for a given race / class / feat combo

At least in 4e it's not true that there's an optimal selection. I don'tt think it would be true in AD&D either (if you were retrofitting a point-buy method onto that system).

And even if it's true in 5e, who is forcing you to optimise? You've been saying throughout this thread that it's fine and perfectly viable for a PC to be unoptimised!

 

[spinozajack]

How does a topic like this make it to nearly 60 pages?

Some people are obviously so desperate to change someone else's mind on the topic, they keep responding to things you wrote even after you blocked them for saying completely ridiculous things and not wanting to discuss anything further. For example, the post above me.

pemerton, I see in my notifications that you quoted me. Don't bother, I put you on ignore. That means I'm not interested in what you have to say, I pretty much disagree with everything you write on the topic of D&D anyway, and it's clear that your opinion won't change no matter what. This is the definition of a futile discussion. The only point of the matter is, dice rolling is the default in 5th edition and point buy is secondary, but both options are listed and presumed balanced. If you disagree, then you are in the minority because most people prefer dice rolling. Surveys were asked during the playtests, and they followed the majority will. Which means you are the minority here. Which means you should have some humility to at least acknowledge the reality of the situation that more people agree with my stance than yours. That in itself doesn't mean I'm on the right side, that is just the obvious conclusion that randomness is integral to this game and the majority can easily recognize that fact and continue playing a game they enjoy.

D&D is a dice rolling game, if you hate rolling dice, play a different game. The dice matter in this game, they determine if your character lives or dies. Why is life or death less important than how big your biceps are compared to your team mate?

The dice have agency in D&D, and are a central defining aspect of this game, if you remove their agency to determine the outcome of the story, you are not playing by either the letter of the rules nor the spirit. There are better, diceless games out there to play if you want to guarantee a certain outcome happening or not happening. Like reading a book. I have no patience for people who complain about "unfair" dice rolls in a dice game. It's absurd beyond all reasonable comprehension. It's irrational. I have no interest in debating irrational ideas. Not worth my time.

I stand by my assertion that people who are wholly against stat rolling are probably undermining the dice agency in multiple other ways, whether it's by fudging dice rolls, taking average HP on level up, forced "balance" (PCs are expected to win, the game is rigged to make them win), or outright cheating or not playing by the rules.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

pemerton, I see in my notifications that you quoted me. Don't bother, I put you on ignore. That means I'm not interested in what you have to say, I pretty much disagree with everything you write on the topic of D&D anyway, and it's clear that your opinion won't change no matter what. This is the definition of a futile discussion. The only point of the matter is, dice rolling is the default in 5th edition and point buy is secondary, but both options are listed and presumed balanced. If you disagree, then you are in the minority because most people prefer dice rolling. Surveys were asked during the playtests, and they followed the majority will. Which means you are the minority here. Which means you should have some humility to at least acknowledge the reality of the situation that more people agree with my stance than yours.

Pemerton doesn't deserve that kind of derogation. He did and does acknowledge that it's merely a playstyle difference, nor a moral issue. All he's done is explain why he prefers a different sort of game--and given that his players average only one PC per four or five years I can certainly see why he doesn't roll!

 

[Crothian]

Discussions like this remind me how little I care about anyone else's homebrew, and moreover, how much I dread being backed into a corner and hearing about it.

That reminds me I haven't told you about my character.

 

[redrick]

...

The only point of the matter is, dice rolling is the default in 5th edition and point buy is secondary, but both options are listed and presumed balanced. If you disagree, then you are in the minority because most people prefer dice rolling. Surveys were asked during the playtests, and they followed the majority will. Which means you are the minority here. Which means you should have some humility to at least acknowledge the reality of the situation that more people agree with my stance than yours. That in itself doesn't mean I'm on the right side, that is just the obvious conclusion that randomness is integral to this game and the majority can easily recognize that fact and continue playing a game they enjoy.

D&D is a dice rolling game, if you hate rolling dice, play a different game. The dice matter in this game, they determine if your character lives or dies. Why is life or death less important than how big your biceps are compared to your team mate?

The dice have agency in D&D, and are a central defining aspect of this game, if you remove their agency to determine the outcome of the story, you are not playing by either the letter of the rules nor the spirit. There are better, diceless games out there to play if you want to guarantee a certain outcome happening or not happening. Like reading a book. I have no patience for people who complain about "unfair" dice rolls in a dice game. It's absurd beyond all reasonable comprehension. It's irrational. I have no interest in debating irrational ideas. Not worth my time.

I stand by my assertion that people who are wholly against stat rolling are probably undermining the dice agency in multiple other ways, whether it's by fudging dice rolls, taking average HP on level up, forced "balance" (PCs are expected to win, the game is rigged to make them win), or outright cheating or not playing by the rules.

The problem with this thread is that folks like pemerton refuse to admit not only that they are wrong, but that their opinion is in no way supported by the rules and is held by a minority of gamers?

Here is the text from the Basic Rules on ability scores:

You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.​

Now, that opens up with suggesting that you roll 4d6, keep 3, but it then goes on to say, "if you prefer, you can use a standard array." Not, "as an optional variant, you can use a standard array." Or, "check with your DM first, but he or she might allow you to use a standard array. If they have no respect for D&D and the tradition of role-playing games. (But watch out, that DM is probably gonna bring all sorts of newfangled anti-D&D ideas into play, so you might be better off just finding a different game.)"

Both methods are valid and explicitly supported by the rules. Both methods have their advantages and disadvantages. Some of those advantages and disadvantages will be accentuated by other factors at a table. Nobody who plays either way is necessarily "doing it wrong."

I don't think any of us here can speak to which character generation method the majority "prefers," and I'm also not sure that it matters either way.

You play D&D with rolled ability scores during character creation. That's great!

But you also seem to want to tell everybody who doesn't care to play that way that using point buy or a standard array is antithetical to the spirit of the game, bad role-playing, bad D&D-ing and a red flag for "cheating." That's not great. That's obnoxious, overbearing, presumptuous, self-righteous and inaccurate.

 

[abirdcall]

D&D is a dice rolling game, if you hate rolling dice, play a different game. The dice matter in this game, they determine if your character lives or dies.

Isn't it possible that some people like dice rolling but don't think 4d6 drop lowest is appropriate for 5e so they use the other standard stat generation method that is given in the rules?

I like ASIs and I like Feats, both of which are diminished by starting with an 18-20 in your primary stat. That is why I prefer the standard array.

The 3-18 stat array doesn't exist anymore yet the dice rolling method still assumes it because it is an artifact. Just because people voted that they want to roll dice to determine their stats doesn't mean they are okay with any method. 3e used 4d6 drop lowest but it was a different game where the stats meant something different than they do in 5e. Directly using the same method was a mistake. That doesn't mean I don't like dice rolling.

 

[thalmin]

I may be just a small town rules lawyer, but it's alllllllll perfectly legal.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

. I have no interest in debating irrational ideas. Not worth my time.

that's so funny because here you are doing what you say is not worth your time...

for the record I would love to debat in a non insulting way the pros and cons... it is not a waste of my time...