Artful Dodger Dead ?

[AbdulAlhazred]

I could ask the question, why would anyone play a cunning sneak when you can play an artful dodger or brutal scoundrel? Gaining combat advantage, both with range or with melee is easy enough without cunning sneak. I find the other builds to be stronger than the cunning sneak as they provide both broader options and better damage.

Yeah, that's kind of my question. Low level Brutal Scoundrels have to work at it a decent amount, but they should be getting CA a good bit and with their extra +STR bonus to SA damage if they miss out on it once in a while they're still coming out even. An AD build rogue should have CA pretty close to 100% of the time. CS is a good option, but its advantages, I'd say, often have more to do with things like being able to play sniper effectively in tactical situations where that is particularly advantageous, which probably has more to do with the specifics of the adventure you're in than anything else. If a story arc involved a lot of guerrilla warfare against superior enemy forces, then I'd maybe want a CS rogue vs one of the other builds. In a more typical game they are probably roughly equal with AD maybe being a bit more flexible and doing a bit more damage but also taking more risks.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

I could ask the question, why would anyone play a cunning sneak when you can play an artful dodger or brutal scoundrel? Gaining combat advantage, both with range or with melee is easy enough without cunning sneak. I find the other builds to be stronger than the cunning sneak as they provide both broader options and better damage.

Why would anyone play another melee striker besides ranger - I heard they are the ultimate melee dpr beasts.

 

[twilsemail]

Thats insanity. THIS IS THE INTERNET! There must be one right answer, and we must argue not make reasonable statements.




Actually I agree with you (hangs head in shame).

My first thought when I read this.

NOT EVERYONE PLAYS THE CHAR OP TWINK CHARACTER OF THE MONTH.

LIES!

Seriously though... Some people have concepts for characters that don't just involve numbers. Perhaps someone wants to play a rakish swashbuckler or a charming but scruffy looking smuggler...

 

[Infiniti2000]

Also, concealment only gives -2 penalty.

And total concealment is -5. Are you saying that "hidden" is not total concealment? Maybe I missed something, though, since your comment had nothing to do with who you quoted.

 

[Mengu]

Why would anyone play another melee striker besides ranger - I heard they are the ultimate melee dpr beasts.

Rangers win D&D *and* the internets!

 

[twilsemail]

Rangers win D&D *and* the internets!

Especially Drow Rangers... with scimitars.

Wait, I thought Trolls won the internet.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

An AD build rogue should have CA pretty close to 100% of the time.

Can you give approximate values for the source of CA? Specifically, what percentage comes from flanking, from conditions (dazed, blinded, etc.), from feats (Distant Advantage), or from powers that specifically grant CA (Adaptable Flanker, Ferret Out Frailty)?

I ask because I really like utility powers that are at-will, like Fast Hands and the stand from prone as minor one. I would hate to "waste" one just to get CA one extra round.

 

[Mengu]

Can you give approximate values for the source of CA? Specifically, what percentage comes from flanking, from conditions (dazed, blinded, etc.), from feats (Distant Advantage), or from powers that specifically grant CA (Adaptable Flanker, Ferret Out Frailty)?

I ask because I really like utility powers that are at-will, like Fast Hands and the stand from prone as minor one. I would hate to "waste" one just to get CA once per round.

Depends largely on your party, level, etc. Our AD rogue's CA comes mainly from distant advantage with thrown daggers, I'd say about 60% of the time. 20% of the time she is attacking something that hasn't gone yet, is blind, or dazed, or got granted CA in some other way like inspired belligerence from the Warlord. 10% of the time she uses one of her utility powers like Hidden Blade or Adaptable Flankler. 10% of the time she needs to actually walk up to a flank.

In a group with a good controller and/or leader, and/or flank conscious defenders/strikers, CA is simply easy to come by.

And if you can't rely on the group, with something like a Drow AD rogue, at paragon could get 3-4 rounds of CA with just racial powers. Doesn't really need to spend many more resources on it.

 

[Budalic]

And total concealment is -5. Are you saying that "hidden" is not total concealment? Maybe I missed something, though, since your comment had nothing to do with who you quoted.

I appears that you are right. You have total concealment from being invisible while hidden. Mea culpa.

Anyway, I can't say I know Rogue very well, but it seems to me (looking at the Character Builder) that Artful Dodger has a way better riders on powers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Can you give approximate values for the source of CA? Specifically, what percentage comes from flanking, from conditions (dazed, blinded, etc.), from feats (Distant Advantage), or from powers that specifically grant CA (Adaptable Flanker, Ferret Out Frailty)?

I ask because I really like utility powers that are at-will, like Fast Hands and the stand from prone as minor one. I would hate to "waste" one just to get CA once per round.

It will depend a LOT on the party mix. I've seen various strategies. One rogue I recall simply got flanking constantly. Having powers that let you shift before or after combat (some feats I think can help here too). One worked pretty closely with a cleric that would toss out Spiritual Weapon on a tough enemy, which gives automatic CA for the rest of the encounter. Other powers that might work would include

Easy Target
Darting Strike
Maneuvering Strike

It goes on and on. Not all of them are awesome powers, but every rogue can pick up a couple of them for those off times when they can't flank or attack while hidden etc.

Look at it this way, a typical encounter is around 6 rounds.

Round 1 - First Strike (and/or surprise or attacking from a hidden position)
Round 2,3 - Encounter powers which grant CA
Round 4,5 - Flanking
Round 6 - target is prone, dazed, etc.

Basically you don't need a LOT of 'extra' ways to get CA, maybe 2 encounter powers at most and you may not even need any in a party with a good leader that can move people around a bunch. There will be variations from encounter to encounter of course. If you were masochistic enough to build a Ruthless Ruffian you might find CA a BIT less prevalent but they have a couple ways to convert Rattled into CA, etc. so its still not a really big deal.

There are plenty of items that will help, stuff that lets you shift, Cape of the Mountebank, any sort of teleportation, etc. Obviously invisibility is always a good one.