D&D 5E artificer initiate, fey touched and shadow touched vs magic initiate and spell slots

[auburn2]

Yes, Inflict Wounds is great with distant spell or with a familiar/homunculus. It's damage also scales better when upcast than any other 1st level spell, making it great for sorcerers, who with a limited spell selection don't always have a higher level spell. It also benefits from alchemist bonus damage. And it's not on the sorcerer/artificer spell list by default.

If you want False Life you can cast it as often as you like for free with the Eldritch Adept Feat.

Caustic Brew is rubbish. It's AoE is small, it's damage is trivial, and worst of all it does nothing at all on a successful save. And double worst of all it requires concentration. An Alchemist, Artillerist or black draconic bloodline sorcerer can improve the damage, but it's on their spell lists anyway so the don't need to use a feat to pick it up.

Thing about catapult is very few enemies are resistant to magical bludgeoning damage. It should also be pretty much always possible to hit at least two targets. On it's own the Magic Stone cantrip scales very poorly with level, however once you start loading it into a sling you can do things like sneak attack with it. You can also give them to the dumb-ass barbarian with no decent ranged attacks. I find faerie fire one of the most used spells in our game. Open with it on a group and give everyone advantage against at least some of them.

Absorb Elements is a class spell for pretty much anyone who would want it. And only sorcerers benefit much from having more spells available. I can't see a fighter wanting to burn a feat for a situational once per day ability, and most EKs pick it up as one of their "must be abjuration or evocation" spells. It is good for ATs though, especially since it comes bundled with magic stone. On the whole I think ATs benefit most from Artificer Initiate.

All valid points, although they vary with playstyle.

Comparing inflict wounds to caustic brew - inflict wounds requires a hit roll, which means in general it will land less than caustic brew, obviously that depends on the enemy, his AC, saves, stats, your condition and his condition. If it was an automatic hit like magic missile I would agree with you. As far as DPR If you can catch 3 enemies in caustic brew it will do as much damage as inflict wounds on round 1 and then do additional every round thereafter unless scraped off. Being ranged on top of this makes it a better spell IMO in general except for some corner cases like those you mentioned. The only time inflict wounds is strictly better is if you have a concentration spell already running that you don't want to break.

Magic stone could be great for someone with a sling and the sharpshooter feat, but other than that there is not much damage to get out of it. You would need to think of this ahead of time too as the sharpshooter is probably not using a sling as her regular missile weapon. It is a bonus action to make the stones so that is a plus, but you can only launch 1 per turn so your other cantrips will generally outpace this one at higher levels.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

I think Magic Initiate should be changed because, as is, the rule is not that you can't use the spell with your other spell slots, the rule is that you can use the spell with your other spell slots if and only if you are a memorized spellcaster taking a feat for spells from your own spellcasting class. In other words, it is a needlessly complicated situation.

Just letting you use spell slots with whatever you take is much more intuitive and much more in line with the way (non-Warlock) spell slots are generally treated in 5e as a generic interchangeable resource. I think a lot of people probably just assume they can use their spell slots with the feat spell until they learn otherwise, and now there are a bunch of feats that work that way just to reinforce that assumption.

While there are lots of changes they might make that would sow confusion with little benefit I think standardizing Magic Initiate to work like its Tasha's equivalents just streamlines the system and resolves more confusion than it creates.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

All valid points, although they vary with playstyle.

Comparing inflict wounds to caustic brew - inflict wounds requires a hit roll, which means in general it will land less than caustic brew, obviously that depends on the enemy, his AC, saves, stats, your condition and his condition. If it was an automatic hit like magic missile I would agree with you. As far as DPR If you can catch 3 enemies in caustic brew it will do as much damage as inflict wounds on round 1 and then do additional every round thereafter unless scraped off. Being ranged on top of this makes it a better spell IMO in general except for some corner cases like those you mentioned. The only time inflict wounds is strictly better is if you have a concentration spell already running that you don't want to break.

Magic stone could be great for someone with a sling and the sharpshooter feat, but other than that there is not much damage to get out of it. You would need to think of this ahead of time too as the sharpshooter is probably not using a sling as her regular missile weapon. It is a bonus action to make the stones so that is a plus, but you can only launch 1 per turn so your other cantrips will generally outpace this one at higher levels.

I'm generally of the view that neither of those feats are worth taking unless your character was one where you expected those "edge cases" to be a regular occurrence. Shadow Touched: only consider it if you are a Sorcerer (not Divine Soul, Draconic Bloodline, Aberrant or Clockwork) or an Alchemist. Artificer Initiate: only consider it if you are an AT and you want to sneak attack with INT instead of DEX. Otherwise there are always better options.

 

[auburn2]

I'm generally of the view that neither of those feats are worth taking unless your character was one where you expected those "edge cases" to be a regular occurrence. Shadow Touched: only consider it if you are a Sorcerer (not Divine Soul, Draconic Bloodline, Aberrant or Clockwork) or an Alchemist. Artificer Initiate: only consider it if you are an AT and you want to sneak attack with INT instead of DEX. Otherwise there are always better options.

How can you SA with Int instead of Dex? I must have missed that, but I never played that combo so maybe I don't know. For mutliclass low levvel AT AI could be good to get absorb elements, not as useful if you are going to go to 5th level and especially not as useful if you go to 7th level in AT. Usually you are going to use shield for your non-illusion/non-enchantment slot, meaning you can't take that an AE. RAW you can't use magic initiate for that due to the reasons I noted when I started this thread.

I am currently looking at shadow touched for a Bladesinger/AT I am playing when I get to level 2/4. Mostly because of the free casting of invisibility and being able to add invisibility to my spells known. At that point I will have 2nd level slots but no second level spells, and the upcast options as wizard (or AT) will be limited based on my limited spell selection which is mostly defensive and utility spells. The second level spell is a pretty big boon for a multi-class caster that is has 2nd level spell slots without having 2nd level spells and at higher levels it is a free invisibility known/prepared. At level 2/4 I will have two 2nd level slots plus a free cast of invisibility. The 1st level spell I will get is kind of irrelevant though, I am leaning towards false life - free 5-9hp for an hour and some back to give me a head start and some emergency back door healing using a spell slot during battle.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How can you SA with Int instead of Dex?

Using a Magic Stone in a sling. Magic Stone uses your spellcasting ability for hit and damage, irrespective of how you launch it, and the sling qualifies for sneak attack.

For mutliclass low levvel AT AI could be good to get absorb elements, not as useful if you are going to go to 5th level and especially not as useful if you go to 7th level in AT. Usually you are going to use shield for your non-illusion/non-enchantment slot, meaning you can't take that an AE. RAW you can't use magic initiate for that due to the reasons I noted when I started this thread.

You said it yourself. Shield is far more useful than Absorb Elements (which I used about once in five levels). So the AT is better picking up shield via magic initiate than Absorb Elements via Artificer Initiate. But even that is a bad option - it competes with Uncanny Dodge for reactions.

I am currently looking at shadow touched for a Bladesinger/AT I am playing when I get to level 2/4. Mostly because of the free casting of invisibility and being able to add invisibility to my spells known. At that point I will have 2nd level slots but no second level spells, and the upcast options as wizard (or AT) will be limited based on my limited spell selection which is mostly defensive and utility spells. The second level spell is a pretty big boon for a multi-class caster that is has 2nd level spell slots without having 2nd level spells and at higher levels it is a free invisibility known/prepared. At level 2/4 I will have two 2nd level slots plus a free cast of invisibility. The 1st level spell I will get is kind of irrelevant though, I am leaning towards false life - free 5-9hp for an hour and some back to give me a head start and some emergency back door healing using a spell slot during battle.

You will have plenty of opportunity to lean invisibility later on - its not worth blowing a feat to get it a couple of levels earlier. Fey Touched for Misty Step and Hunters Mark or Hex Is a much better choice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not quite. They've added how it works in the sage advice compendium. It's a little convoluted but basically it needs to be from your class and follow your spellcasting feature.

"@odiemor @SageAdviceDnD Can the EK cast a spell learned on Magic Initiate using his spell slots? Yes. — Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) December 9, 2015"

Also, in one of last years ddb videos talking about the feats, IIRC, JC talked about how this is how the feat works, but it isn't clear and causes frustration, so they decided to make features that teach you spells more clear going forward.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

To clarify further, here is the full discussion of the feature on twitter, and a glimpse into the nuance of it.

Magic Initiate feat Ranger and Eldritch Knight

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

From the compendium, " In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate."

 

[cbwjm]

To clarify further, here is the full discussion of the feature on twitter, and a glimpse into the nuance of it.

Magic Initiate feat Ranger and Eldritch Knight

D&D Sage Advice ·

www.sageadvice.eu

From the compendium, " In short, you must follow your character’s normal spellcasting rules, which determine whether you can expend spell slots on the 1st-level spell you learn from Magic Initiate."

Yes, which means if you pick up a druid spell, that EK can't cast it with spell slots unless it is also on the wizard list. A wizard who picks up a wizard spell needs to add it to their spellbook and prepare it normally. It is explains it in the sage advice compendium.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yes, which means if you pick up a druid spell, that EK can't cast it with spell slots unless it is also on the wizard list. A wizard who picks up a wizard spell needs to add it to their spellbook and prepare it normally. It is explains it in the sage advice compendium.

Why are you telling me things that I would have to know in order to make the posts I've just made?

 

[cbwjm]

Why are you telling me things that I would have to know in order to make the posts I've just made?

You quoted part of the the sage advice compendium, I assumed you read it.