Assassin Feedback

[Mouseferatu]

I don't have the PDF open right now, but I remember there was some rule on poisoning someone by putting the poison in his food or drink. IIRC, the effect was inflicting damage equal to 1/2 it's bloodied value.

That kinda feels like you could never poison someone (other then a Minion, perhaps?) and kill him with the poison. Does this feel "right" to you?

Use two doses.

 

[nookiemonster]

I agree about the odd wording of Kukri Lunge. Perhaps if it were changed to something like "You charge the target and make the following attack..." it would be clearer.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Actually, Brutal 1 adds an additional .5 to the average damage, hence d6 -> 4 damage on average, fullblade is d12 -> 6.5 average damage. Now, if you want to talk about the executioner's axe, that's a bigger difference, since it's Brutal 2 that puts it at 7.5 average damage, but of course kukri lunge is already at 8 average damage as well, so you can see where it edges out the executioner's axe by .5 on charges. And while all the points you make about the executioner's axe are true, you have spent a feat at that point to get that, and probably didn't pick kukri lunge as your first at-will.

Point. But the way I play I'd prefer an extra at will to a feat any day. (I almost always take distinctly different at will abilities - one reason I'll never play a slayer fighter). I sometimes claim my Warlord has 5 At Wills - Commander's Strike, Direct the Strike, Brash Assault, Melee Basic (for when he's no allies nearby), and a charge that combined with badge of the beserker and boots of adept charging normally leaves the enemy prone and one square away. All are useful at different times (My wizard would love more than three - but three are enough to make the DM tear his hair out). I also used the Executioner's Axe here rather than the fullblade because the to hit bonus is only +2, and I couldn't bother to change the math for the +3 to hit from the fullblade.

I think you're really relying on some very meta assumptions there. To be honest, I am not going to argue this point. I feel like there's a lot more to blending in as an assassin outside of when you're hanging out with your fellow adventurers, such as when you're trying to blend in with the servants to slip into a nobleman's bedroom or walk into a prison to meet with a prisoner.

It happens. But those times aren't heavily combat focussed and are something I'm going to prepare specially for rather than take my top line combat style. They can also leave the rest of the party out in the cold unless the party is specifically set up for that sort of mission. I'd leave the fullblade behind there, but I would be trying to avoid combat not see it as inevitable. (Honestly, with the assassin I want to play and the rules given I'd often leave the dagger at home as well and just carry a non-magical garrote and the unarmed throw). Either way, and coming back to another point, the dagger isn't especially useful here except as a shuriken.

In such cases I certainly couldn't carry a javelin. It's almost as long and conspicuous as a longsword.

 

[Psikus]

To blend in you want beaten looking armour and some sort of decent weapon - not having obvious ones in that sort of group is, of itself, suspicious. (...)

And as I said, one of the best things an assassin can do is not look like an assassin. Someone walking round with a group of people in scale armour with large shields and carrying only daggers? Rogue or assassin.

I don't think that's such a big issue, but you could use Flawless Disguise to make your leather-bound, kukri-wielding assassin look like an iron-clad brute with a big stick. It's such a silly idea, it could just work.

Re: Unseen Spearhead, I think there is a major factor that hasn't been taken into account. Coup de Grace is an automatic kill if you manage to deal damage greater than bloodied value. Even if the raw damage values aren't much greater than two turns' worth of attacks, the chance of two-shotting an enemy is well worth it, in my opinion.

Overall, I really like the class, and I think it does a great job of representing the assassin archetype. I miss a few additional options at higher levels, where you end up knowing all but 1 paragon poisons and epic poisons, and every at-will. Adding 1 poison at levels 15 and 25 would add a bit of variety. As for the at-wills... maybe the level 17 feature could provide a proficiency and at-will from a different guild?

Other than that, I think Unarmed Throw lacks a bit of power (even if the accuracy issue is fixed), as the effect is hardly worth sacrificing a full round of damage (unlike Bolas Takedown, which is awesome). Any minor improvement would help - changing the push to a slide 2 or 3, adding Dex modifier damage, or allowing it to be used as an opportunity attack would make it much more attractive.

 

[nnms]

The guy is going to be running around with leather armour, a small shield and a smallish weapon, or some sort of spear or a normal weapon.

He's going to look like a warrior. Maybe some sort of duelist. He's certainly not going to stick out more than a cleric with a big holy symbol around his neck or a wizard shooting magic out of a wand or staff. Some guy in leather armour with a small shield and a spear? Why would he get all the attention over a wizard or a cleric?

If your DM is always having monsters concentrating on the rogueish types because they look the most like a typical warrior, then I'd say he's playing the monsters poorly. Just as players can play their characters poorly, a DM can play the monsters poorly.

 

[Neonchameleon]

People seem to be misunderstanding me; probably my fault. My point about the dagger is that there is one specific reason to use a dagger. It's small enough to hide so you can appear unarmed. As 4e weapons go, it's othewise crap. d4/+3. If doing much melee, the rapier is much better - and if ranged, the folding shortbow. (Also the dagger doesn't combine well with the light shield for sneakiness; the shield is harder to hide). And the average adventurer doesn't want to appear unarmed the majority of the time - it attracts attention.

As current rules stand, the garrote is easier to hide. As is the shuriken. And both do as much damage (or more with their weapon specific powers).

Therefore the dagger does not have a niche for the Assassin. If the theme of an assassin involves using a dagger, this needs mechanical justification. Or a specialised team and even then it's dubious.

Therefore to be actually useful to an assassin, the Dagger needs an at will attack power.

I miss a few additional options at higher levels, where you end up knowing all but 1 paragon poisons and epic poisons, and every at-will. Adding 1 poison at levels 15 and 25 would add a bit of variety. As for the at-wills... maybe the level 17 feature could provide a proficiency and at-will from a different guild?

Isn't that what Dragon is for?

Other than that, I think Unarmed Throw lacks a bit of power (even if the accuracy issue is fixed), as the effect is hardly worth sacrificing a full round of damage (unlike Bolas Takedown, which is awesome). Any minor improvement would help - changing the push to a slide 2 or 3, adding Dex modifier damage, or allowing it to be used as an opportunity attack would make it much more attractive.

I favour the Opportunity Attack "trip" option With a feat to allow you to throw someone who charges you as an OA.

If your DM is always having monsters concentrating on the rogueish types because they look the most like a typical warrior, then I'd say he's playing the monsters poorly. Just as players can play their characters poorly, a DM can play the monsters poorly.

This isn't that. It's prefering to attack the skinny person on the front line in robes to the goliath wearing hide and carrying a large shield. It simply looks easier until he simply starts catching the arrows fired at him (and it is harder to get at the mage, the invoker, or the laser cleric because they are behind the front lines)

 

[WalterKovacs]

I love the class ... cut to constructive criticism.

1: Assassin attack finesse is in dire need of errata. +d6 damage with either single handed weapons or assassin weapons (read: garottes). Otherwise you simply buy Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade or Executioner's Axe. And the power curve just breaks. Hell, a maul will do it. (Oh, and Kukri Lunge becomes pointless)

That would be like a ranger (specifically a ranger with an animal companion) wielding the same weapon. Getting that +d6 per tier against their quarry.

A maul is not brutal 1, thus kukri charge still has benefits compared to a maul. Also, you would still ned a feat to get a maul (at which point you would get the mordenkrand instead which would give you the brutal 1 property as well).

It does ignore the idea of the class basically, but it makes a different build that more or less ignores the guild at-wills and is similar to the old Greatsword wielding rogues of old. However, there are already classes that could be quite similar (just trading the one shot massive damage encounter power for several encounter powers, etc). It would be a slayer with d6's instead of a static boost to damage basically.

2: There really needs to be a dagger at will. Or two. I mean. Seriously? Kukri and javelin but no dagger? Which means that one of the archetypal assassin weapons is among the worst weapons they can choose. (For melee, rapier or longsword beats it hands down. And at range if you're a ranged assassin go shuriken)

Well, the kukri is bassically an assassin's dagger. Since the dagger is already the rogue's best friend, they probably wanted to differentiate the assassin from the rogue.

3: Unarmed throw. This should be against a NAD. Ref or Fort - or a choice. AC makes little sense. Likewise the Bolas (I don't care which one- there's an argument for the bolas to hit the worse of the two).

With the Bola attack, you get +3 as a proficiency bonus and it does immobilize as an at-will attack, so AC isn't as bad. The unarmed however is pretty bad, as it is worse than the bola attack and while it technically says you gain proficiency with unarmed attacks, it does not say what that means. Missing out on a +2 or +3 bonus on the attack the throw is very poor. It should probably address what being proficient in unarmed means (either give it the monk's unarmed attack, or give it it's own version).

4: There are some odd features of the garotting rules. Like the ability to use one for an opportunity attack while having it round someone else's throat. (The trailing end of wire, I suppose?) Several possible solutions including making you only need one hand to sustain (so you can draw a normal weapon in your other hand for MBAs).

The rule on the grabbed condition are that maintaining this condition on the creatur occupies whatever appendage, object, or effect the grabber used to initiate the grab. So, in the case of the garotte, both hands and the weapon are being used. If proficiency in unarmed attacks allow the use of legs/kicks that would allow for opportunity attacks, otherwise outside of a DM houseruling, you would be pretty much unable to attack without ending the grab.

5: Unseen Spearhead. This appears to be a newbie trap at heroic when compared to Garrotte Strangle. If you don't keep the target grabbed for the entire round then it does nothing. If we ignore Vicious Greatspears for the moment then a crit does only around twice the damage of a normal attack anywhere in heroic - so assuming both hit and no escape, the garotte strangle is about on par with damage after the first round of sustaining. But this doesn't take into account that the garrote already did damage, is more accurate, and harder to escape from. You need 2 rounds before overtaking the garrote.

First of all, action point.

Secondly, based on the rules on grabbing, the spear you use to grab them (which, can't be a great spear. If it was any weapon in the spear group it wouldn't have to include javelin, which is in the spear group anyway.) can't be used to attack. So, any one handed weapon can be used on the coup de gras while you have the target grabbed with the spear. And, this is really only useful once per encounter when you can use an action point and your encounter power to pump a lot of maximized damage into a single target. Otherwise, the garotte attack is more useful. However, you can have both (especially as you level and get more). And with a ki-focus and quick change, there is little cost involved in having many weapons on you.

6: Without superior cover, total concealment, or some form of invisibility, the assassin can't hide. Which means he's hosed by certain styles of DMing (and if I see another rose bowl I'll be annoyed). Possible synergy with the missing dagger power? The dagger doesn't do extra damage, but the small weapon does allow the assassin a distraction to hide in regular cover that turn?

There are some utility powers that address that issue, and being trained in stealth allows the assassin to grab stealth skill powers as utilities that can also make it easier to hide. There is also the bluff->hide technique (only usable once per encounter though.) Taking the cuthroat feat at least makes it a minor action. There are a number of ways to deal with the problem. If it's outside, it may be more difficult, but inside of buildings there will likely be corners to start hidden behind and then using stuff like silent stalker to enter the room and remain hidden long enough to bring one of the attacks.

7: Silent Stalker. Does this automatically unhide you at the end of your turn? Or can you use it to "sling shot" - silent stalk to the guard and then take your second action to run past them to the next spot of cover. (I'd allow the sling shot, myself, but can see arguments both ways).

They should probably clarify the wording, but presumably if you are in a position to maintain your stealth at the end of your turn you wouldn't lose your stealth. [The power is designed to set up an attack, and thus assumes you left cover as part of the move]. Then again it may be a built in draw back, you get to be hidden until the end of your turn no matter where you are or what you do (leaving cover, attacking, etc) but you are no longer hidden at the end or your turn no matter what you do.

8: Was the intent for any or all of precision darts, bolas takedown, and unarmed throw to gain the bonus damage from Attack Finesse. And if they do do they also gain the enhancement bonus?

I'm not sure about it. The extra damage isn't worded like sneak attack (it would apply to maintained garotte strangle since it isn't tied to a hit like the other extra damage effects are). It itsn't worded like enhancement bonuses, so it should apply. However, it isn't weapon damage, so it wouldn't allow enhancement bonuses to apply [that I do know, there were questions involving that in the past in the case of sneak attack with a fixed damage power].

 

[Neonchameleon]

That would be like a ranger (specifically a ranger with an animal companion) wielding the same weapon. Getting that +d6 per tier against their quarry.

No it wouldn't. First there is no synergy between strength ranger builds and fullblades as almost all the powers require two weapons to work properly. Secondly, there are things you can do with melee basic attacks you can't with quarry.

A maul is not brutal 1, thus kukri charge still has benefits compared to a maul. Also, you would still ned a feat to get a maul (at which point you would get the mordenkrand instead which would give you the brutal 1 property as well).

I couldn't remember which the superior weapon in question was. And couldn't be bothered to look it up. Kukri Charge has precisely nothing on a Mordenkrand - 2d6, Brutal 1, all normal bonusses.

It does ignore the idea of the class basically, but it makes a different build that more or less ignores the guild at-wills and is similar to the old Greatsword wielding rogues of old. However, there are already classes that could be quite similar (just trading the one shot massive damage encounter power for several encounter powers, etc). It would be a slayer with d6's instead of a static boost to damage basically.

You miss the build entirely. It would be a slayer with d6s and garrotes (or shuriken) and poisons. Garrote and poison when you can. Fullblade when you can't.

Well, the kukri is bassically an assassin's dagger. Since the dagger is already the rogue's best friend, they probably wanted to differentiate the assassin from the rogue.

Not Moridin's claim. And he wrote the class.

The rule on the grabbed condition are that maintaining this condition on the creatur occupies whatever appendage, object, or effect the grabber used to initiate the grab. So, in the case of the garotte, both hands and the weapon are being used. If proficiency in unarmed attacks allow the use of legs/kicks that would allow for opportunity attacks, otherwise outside of a DM houseruling, you would be pretty much unable to attack without ending the grab.

OK. Meaning you can't then use the javelin you used to grab with to make the attack? Fluff's wrong then.

First of all, action point.

Point. I am seeing a team beatdown on solos here.

Secondly, based on the rules on grabbing, the spear you use to grab them (which, can't be a great spear. If it was any weapon in the spear group it wouldn't have to include javelin, which is in the spear group anyway.) can't be used to attack.

Fluff needs a re-write then.

So, any one handed weapon can be used on the coup de gras while you have the target grabbed with the spear. And, this is really only useful once per encounter when you can use an action point and your encounter power to pump a lot of maximized damage into a single target. Otherwise, the garotte attack is more useful. However, you can have both (especially as you level and get more). And with a ki-focus and quick change, there is little cost involved in having many weapons on you.

Very edge case. But I'm seeing it as a useful solo-ganker now if everyone gangs up to prevent the solo escaping (two CDG attacks with a scimitar aren't going to do anyone any good).

There are some utility powers that address that issue, and being trained in stealth allows the assassin to grab stealth skill powers as utilities that can also make it easier to hide. There is also the bluff->hide technique (only usable once per encounter though.) Taking the cuthroat feat at least makes it a minor action. There are a number of ways to deal with the problem. If it's outside, it may be more difficult, but inside of buildings there will likely be corners to start hidden behind and then using stuff like silent stalker to enter the room and remain hidden long enough to bring one of the attacks.

I'm not sure about it. The extra damage isn't worded like sneak attack (it would apply to maintained garotte strangle since it isn't tied to a hit like the other extra damage effects are). It itsn't worded like enhancement bonuses, so it should apply. However, it isn't weapon damage, so it wouldn't allow enhancement bonuses to apply [that I do know, there were questions involving that in the past in the case of sneak attack with a fixed damage power].

Again, see Moridin's posts in the thread. It is intended to apply.

 

[Blastin]

Ok...I'm a bit lost on how the sudden spearhead power actually works as far as the follow up attack.
Guess: You are hiding, shift 2 sq up to the target and hit with the power using spear/jav. You now have the target grabbed. Assuming he doesn't escape he is now helpless as long as you take a minor to sustain the grab. Got thus far.
So how do you make the follow up attack without dropping the grab? Is this where the partner comes in? How does the action point help? Sorry for the confusion, but the fluff text doesn't seem to fit the rules...

 

[gribble]

According to the compendium, you sustain a grab as a minor action. While you need a hand free to initiate a grab (as per the action, though not when using the assassin at-will), there is no requirement to have a hand free to sustain it.

Also according to the compendium, the following will end a grab: being affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions, moving away from the creature you’re grabbing, or if a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach.

So, as long as you spend the minor action on your turn, not only is it fully legal to attack with the spear, you could even draw another weapon (executioner axe?) and attack with it. Of course, most sensible DMs will probably baulk at that...