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D&D 5E Assassinate

epithet

Explorer
I'll be damned if I'm going to defer to a tweet as to how a rule should be interpreted. It is impossible to know the full context, whether Mearles or Thompson really understood the question they were being asked, whether they took the time to consider their answer, etc.

If there is a dev comment that sets out the situation and provides some actual guidance, I'll pay attention to it. Anything on twitter is an off-the-cuff remark, no more valid than something you might overhear from the next table at the bar.
 

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Ristamar

Adventurer
The tweet from Rodney is definitely lacking context in the broader scope of this discussion. For example, a sucker punch coming from a guy standing in front of you is arguably a lot different from being shot in the back in a public place by an assailant in a hidden location.
 

epithet

Explorer
Yeah, and you should be able to get surprise on a sucker punch with a charisma (Deception) check opposed by "passive" wisdom (Insight). That's what a sucker punch is.
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
When you are surprised you can't take any type of action or move right.

Wrong. If you are surprised, you cannot take actions on your first turn. There is nothing preventing a surprised creature taking actions in subsequent turns.

After your first turn you can take reactions right.

Right, but you can only take react to things that you know about.

Reactions are a type of action.

Not arguing....

So after your turn is over, you are no longer surprised.

No, that does not follow. Being surprised means (among other things) that you cannot take actions on your first turn, but the fact that you cannot take actions does not mean that you are surprised! The flow chart only goes one way. Surprise is not determined by the ability to take actions, but by the knowledge that you are in danger/combat.

Again here is Mike Mearls talking about when surprise ends.

This just goes to show why Mike is not the rules guy!

Here is Rodney Thompson talking about not letting sucker punches go before or at the top of initiative.

I do not advocate taking combat actions outside combat rounds. As soon as the assassin declares he is shooting at the target, surprise is determined and initiative is rolled, all before that initial attack is resolved.

All attacks happen in initiative.

Agreed.

Surprise lasts until your first turn is over.

No. There is zero rules support for that. You are surprised until you are no longer surprised, and that is not determined by the initiative count, your initiative score, what round it is, or anything except the realisation that you are in danger/combat.

I don't see how these things are hard to grasp as rules. You can most certainly disagree with the rules and change them in your games but trying to say thats not how the rules are supposed to work is just having blinders on.

Strange. I was about to say that to you!
 

redrick

First Post
Initiative rolls do not determine surprise!

I've read every post on this thread, and joined this forum just to point this out! On here, people are seriously saying that because your initiative score is reached that you are no longer surprised!

That is not how surprise works. The DM determines surprise. How? He can decide, by fiat, that creature X is surprised. Or, he may use some other method. The most common being opposed Stealth/Perception rolls, although opposed Deception/Insight rolls would be more appropriate in situations where the creature was already seen but you had no reason to believe that it was going to attack, such as being suddenly stabbed by your dentist for no reason.

What are the effects of surprise? Well, there are two game mechanics (that I know of) that apply when a creature is surprised:-

* in the first round of combat, a surprised creature cannot move or act on its turn, and cannot take reactions until its first turn is over

* if an assassin hits a surprised creature, then that hit is a critical hit!

Both are true, and both are true independently. Whether your turn has come up yet in the initiative count has absolutely no impact on whether or not you are surprised; it only impacts when you can act and/or take reactions.

When does a surprised creature stop being surprised? Is it when his first turn is over? No. The initiative count/your initiative total do not determine surprise.

The DM determines surprise (by fiat or by an appropriate check), and the DM determines when a surprised creature stops being surprised (by fiat, or by an appropriate check).

Conceptually, a creature is surprised when it doesn't realise that it's in danger, and stops being surprised when it (finally) realises that it is in danger! So, if that sniper's arrow (critically) hits you, the DM will (probably) determine, by fiat, that you are no longer surprised on the grounds that this arrow sticking out of you (along with the Sucking Chest Wound) counts as clear evidence that you are in danger.

What if the sniper missed? The arrow might pass unseen and unheard into the bushes, or it might clatter loudly off the stonework. If there is a doubt, that's what rolls are for!

Also, it doesn't have to be the first round of combat per se, it could be the first round for a particular creature. For example, if you are in combat when a hidden enemy snipes from the bushes, this would not auto-crit. You are in battle, on the lookout for danger, you are not surprised. So, that attack from hidden may have advantage (and Sneak Attack), but no auto-crit. But imagine that your combat has been going for some time, when you suddenly burst into a room. The occupant may very well be surprised! It is his first round of combat, and he may not have been aware of danger. Contested rolls (or DM fiat) to determine if that creature is surprised.

So, back to the example earlier in the thread: the target is standing in the open (on his smartphone or whatever) when the hidden assassin says he's going to attempt to assassinate the target. At this point the DM determines surprise, either just by saying that the target is surprised or (more likely in this case) having that assassin make a Stealth check which beats the target's passive Perception.

Let's say the target is surprised. Now, initiative is rolled. Lets say that the vagaries of the dice result in the victim having a higher initiative total.

Initiative counts down, and reaches the score of the target. He is surprised, so cannot act. After this, he can take reactions.

Does the ability to take reactions now mean that he is no longer surprised? No! There is no rule to support this absurd idea! If you look at the reactions you have available, I'd be shocked if you can take it against an attack that you know nothing about! You take reactions to respond to things you can see (or are aware of), and the target in this little scenario is still blissfully unaware of the assassin! Remember, surprise is determined by opposed Stealth/Perception scores (in this scenario), not by initiative (which determines how fast you react, not what you perceive).

So our victim is still surprised, because he doesn't know of any danger and the assassin has done nothing (yet) to change that.

Next, the assassin's turn. He shoots from hidden, so has advantage. If that attack hits, then because the victim is still surprised then it is an auto-crit because the assassin class feature says it is. If that attack hits and crits, and the target is still conscious, is he still surprised? I doubt it! I think that most DMs would rule by fiat that he now realises that he is in danger. Subsequent attacks may or may not have advantage, but will not auto-crit from the assassinate ability.

What if the assassin misses? The DM will determine (by fiat or by rolling) if the target has stopped being surprised, based on things that the target could perceive (like noticing an arrow zip by his nose).

What if the target doesn't notice the miss; is he still surprised? Yes, if the DM determines that he is still surprised in round 2, then the game mechanics of surprise are still in play. Granted, his first turn has come and gone, so the target can act normally on his turn in round 2, but if he has no reason to believe he's in danger then he is still surprised and still vulnerable to auto-crits from the assassinate ability. When the target takes his action in round 2, he cannot attack the assassin simply because he has no clue that there even is an assassin. He could, in theory, use an action to roll a Perception check, and if he beats the assassin's previously rolled Stealth check then he will notice the assassin and as a consequence no longer be surprised. However, in theory, the target my stay surprised for many rounds.

In practice however, this is unlikely. If an arrow has been shot, this is combat and we are already in combat rounds. If the assassin did not even shoot, then there is little reason to be in combat rounds.

While I appreciate your celebration of DM discretion and DM fiat, I will say, as a discrete and fiative DM, that a guideline on the duration of "surprise" is helpful.

The D&D combat round and action economy is an abstract thing. We know that it lasts, nominally, 6 seconds, but, sometimes it doesn't, and I don't really know what could actually happen in 6 seconds anyway. (And I say this as somebody who deals in short durations for a living.)

So, when I determine surprise, I feel pretty good about using my DM powers to do this in a consistent way, but once we ask the question, "ok, but when does character A stop being surprised?" That is going to be a hard one for me to answer. For that reason, it's helpful to have a general sense of, "what has to happen for a character, under normal circumstances, to be able to acquire a general awareness of surrounding combat threats? And the options seem to be:

1. After the character's initiative (ie turn) during the first (surprising) round of combat, after which point the character can take reactions (it makes sense to couple the ability to react with an improved sense of general combat awareness, and it also makes sense to tie the duration of surprise to reaction speed/initiative)
2. After the end of the first combat round (simpler. more generous to Assassins. decouples the end of surprise from reaction time.)
3. After the characters initiative (ie turn) during the second (no longer surprising) round of combat, at which point the character has now been able to take normal actions (still tying surprise to reaction speed, but in a way that is much more generous to Assassins, often allowing them to get Assassinate attacks in two consecutive rounds against the same target)
4. After the character has taken an action (this one doesn't make much sense to me, as there are a number of ways to defer character actions, allowing "surprise" to last indefinitely)

All of those options are reasonable options, even number 4, which I think is a bit silly. What would not be reasonable would be, at the DM's discretion, alternating between those 4 durations, without a really damn good reason. So I do think it is valuable for a DM to have a working, mechanical guideline on the duration of surprise that makes sense and can be consistently applied.
 

epithet

Explorer
I think "surprised" is essentially being in combat without knowing you are in combat. If you need a definitive guideline for how long suprise lasts, I would say that surprise will last as long as the surprised creature remains unaware of any immediate attack or threat against itself or an ally it can see or otherwise perceive, but in all cases surprise lasts at least until the end of the surprised creature's turn in the first round in which it becomes aware of an attack or threat.
 

Coredump

Explorer
Advantage on initiative rolls is no different than running surprise as I was running it before. It would be a house rule. I feel like avoiding those. Nowhere in the PHB does anything given advantage on initiative checks other than enhance ability dexterity. That is your house rule.
You are 100% wrong. The rules explicitly state " The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result."

It is the DMs *job* to adjudicate when circumstances would provide advantage or disadvantage.

You can't simply ignore rules, and then claim the game 'doesn't work right'.....



Fine.... do you feel that gaining advantage on an attack devalues Bless?
 

Coredump

Explorer
The DM determines surprise (by fiat or by an appropriate check), and the DM determines when a surprised creature stops being surprised (by fiat, or by an appropriate check).
.
Hmmm... can you provide a rule for this...?? Anywhere?

Where does it say the DM makes that determination?
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
It's fruitless to complain about the lack of DM-independent rules to determine when surprise ends when the rules for when surprise begins is equally dependent on the DM.

RAW, the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (PHB p189). This is the entire extent of the RAW on when surprise begins, so it can't come as a *ahem* surprise that the determination of when surprise ends is equally DM dependent.

How is the DM supposed to determine surprise, according to RAW? Although there is an example using Stealth/Perception, the actual rule is, 'Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter'.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a character or creature is no longer surprised as soon as they do 'notice a threat'!

Initiative determines how fast you can react to things that you perceive (because you cannot react to things you haven't perceived), but it doesn't determine what you actually perceive; for that, you need your senses. In game terms, Perception or Insight might be appropriate depending on circumstances, but if the outcome is not uncertain then DM fiat is fine.

It's hard to argue that a creature taking an arrow to the chest is uncertain if he's in danger or not!
 

Coredump

Explorer
It's fruitless to complain about the lack of DM-independent rules to determine when surprise ends when the rules for when surprise begins is equally dependent on the DM.

RAW, the DM determines whether anyone in the combat is surprised (PHB p189). This is the entire extent of the RAW on when surprise begins, so it can't come as a *ahem* surprise that the determination of when surprise ends is equally DM dependent.
I am not complaining about the rules, I am complaining about your assertions.
I can show the rule that says the DM is to determine which creatures are surprised. That is not an issue.

*YOU* have claimed that the rules say for the DM to determine when the creatures are no longer surprised.... so please present that rule. Or at least admit that you are making it up based on what you think 'makes sense'.
But in either case, stop pretending that your assertions are based on the rules.


How is the DM supposed to determine surprise, according to RAW? Although there is an example using Stealth/Perception, the actual rule is, 'Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter'.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that a character or creature is no longer surprised as soon as they do 'notice a threat'!

Initiative determines how fast you can react to things that you perceive (because you cannot react to things you haven't perceived), but it doesn't determine what you actually perceive; for that, you need your senses. In game terms, Perception or Insight might be appropriate depending on circumstances, but if the outcome is not uncertain then DM fiat is fine.

It's hard to argue that a creature taking an arrow to the chest is uncertain if he's in danger or not!
So now you are saying that Surprise only lasts for the first attack. If the Bad guy is Surprised by 4 PCs, once the first one hits him, then he is does "notice a threat" and is no longer surprised....
Again, your assertions are not supported by the rules.
 

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