D&D 5E Assassinate

[Arial Black]

You've stripped this phrase of its context. It only applies to the beginning of the encounter.

It applies whenever the conditions are met; specifically: whenever you do not notice a threat when in combat rounds.

The DM determines surprise at the beginning of the encounter before a surprised creature has a chance to notice anything. Notice it doesn't say the DM determines when surprise begins or ends, just whether the encounter begins with someone being surprised.

The DM is obliged to determine surprise during combat, and that includes when combat starts. The first step is to determine surprise because that's one of the things the DM needs to know, but just because you must do this as combat starts does not mean that it only applies as combat starts. It (the DM determining surprise) applies all during combat, including as it starts.

You've been leaving out the bolded part. It's important. If a creature notices a threat after the encounter has begun it has no bearing on whether they are surprised or not as that has already been determined.

It has a bearing because 'noticing a threat' is the definition of surprise as a game mechanic. When you don't, you are surprised; when you do, you aren't.

Remind us, if you don't agree with the RAW of 'you are surprised if you don't notice a threat', when do you think that surprise starts/ends, and what rules support your view?

 

[MG.0]

it's hardly 'silly' to say that you are not surprised if you do notice a threat.

I won't argue RAW, because it's stupid. But I will respond to your last sentence: It is perfectly believable that you can be surprised and subsequently notice a threat (the attack that hit you) and remain surprised. Since you can't take any action during your first turn, no matter how many people with high initiative hit you first, the rules would seem to agree. You seem to be arguing for a point of view that is simultaneously counter to both common sense and the intent of the rules.

 

[Arial Black]

I won't argue RAW, because it's stupid.

The RAW makes sense to me, but okay, let's discuss 'surprise' outside of RAW.

It is perfectly believable that you can be surprised and subsequently notice a threat (the attack that hit you) and remain surprised.

Not as the game understands 'surprised', which is defined as 'not noticing a threat'.

Since you can't take any action during your first turn, no matter how many people with high initiative hit you first, the rules would seem to agree.

The rules for initiative and what you can or cannot do in a turn do not determine surprise; it's the other way round: the rules for surprise affect what you can or cannot do on your turn.

What does determine 'surprise' is whether or not you 'notice a threat'.

You seem to be arguing for a point of view that is simultaneously counter to both common sense and the intent of the rules.

My arguments here are perfectly consistent with the rules for 'surprise', and have the benefit of completely dealing with the questions regarding when it starts and ends. No counter explanation in this thread has shown any rules support. For example, it is not written that you cease to be surprised after your first turn, after the first round, after the first hit, or anything except 'you are surprised if you do not notice a threat', and 'the DM determines if a character or monster is surprised'.

My arguments are also perfectly consistent with common sense. Conceptually, the effects of being surprised are not about being 'astonished' or any such synonym, and instead are all about whether you are ready and alert to face the immediate dangers, which you can only do if you realise that there is any danger!

This is modelled in the rules by rolling Perception to notice the monsters, or rolling Insight to realise that your friend is about to attack you.

It is not modelled by Initiative, which models how fast you react to danger once you've actually perceived it. Initiative does not model whether or not you perceive it!

 

[Hriston]

It applies whenever the conditions are met; specifically: whenever you do not notice a threat when in combat rounds.

Take another look:

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

That means that only at the start of the encounter is a creature surprised when it doesn't notice a threat. Can a creature not notice a threat at other times? Sure, but the effect of not noticing a threat at any time other than the start of the encounter is not specified here.

The DM is obliged to determine surprise during combat, and that includes when combat starts. The first step is to determine surprise because that's one of the things the DM needs to know, but just because you must do this as combat starts does not mean that it only applies as combat starts. It (the DM determining surprise) applies all during combat, including as it starts.

You're making that up. Refer to the above explanation of the phrase, "at the start of the encounter".

It has a bearing because 'noticing a threat' is the definition of surprise as a game mechanic. When you don't, you are surprised; when you do, you aren't.

Only at the start of the encounter.

Remind us, if you don't agree with the RAW of 'you are surprised if you don't notice a threat', when do you think that surprise starts/ends, and what rules support your view?

Any character or monster that doesn’t notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

Oh, and welcome to ENWorld. Have some XP.

 

[Coredump]

Why?

Um.... because it doesn't exist, and in fact goes directly against the rules that do exist...???

 

[Celtavian]

I still don't see how you notice a threat you didn't notice in the first place until that threat acts.

 

[Arial Black]

Take another look: That means that only at the start of the encounter is a creature surprised when it doesn't notice a threat. Can a creature not notice a threat at other times? Sure, but the effect of not noticing a threat at any time other than the start of the encounter is not specified here.

Because this is true all through combat, it is also true at the start of combat. It should come as no surprise (sorry!) that it's the first thing that must be done, but that doesn't mean that it is only done at the start. At that point in the rules, they are talking specifically about what happens at the start of the combat round, so they couch it in that language.

Without the understanding that 'surprise' is not limited to the start of combat, you are left with the dilemma that you don't know when it ends! With the understanding that you are surprised until you are not, i.e. you have not noticed a threat until you do notice a threat, then there are no problems to solve.

Oh, and welcome to ENWorld. Have some XP.

Thanks.

Er...where are my XPs!

 

[Hriston]

Because this is true all through combat, it is also true at the start of combat. It should come as no surprise (sorry!) that it's the first thing that must be done, but that doesn't mean that it is only done at the start. At that point in the rules, they are talking specifically about what happens at the start of the combat round, so they couch it in that language.

Let's say you're in the third or fourth round of a combat with a bunch of ninjas. On their turns they all use Cunning Action to duck into the shadows and take the Hide action. Are you saying that at that point you would become surprised and be unable to act or move until you noticed them again?

Without the understanding that 'surprise' is not limited to the start of combat, you are left with the dilemma that you don't know when it ends!

Surprise has no existence beyond its described effects. The rules are clear about when those effects end.

With the understanding that you are surprised until you are not, i.e. you have not noticed a threat until you do notice a threat, then there are no problems to solve.

I reject this interpretation on the grounds that it is possible to be attacked many times before the effects of surprise wear off at the end of your first turn. Surprise has no reality beyond those effects.

Thanks.

Er...where are my XPs!

I gave them to you for the post to which I was replying. I'm not going to give you any more.

 

[bgbarcus]

Let's say you're in the third or fourth round of a combat with a bunch of ninjas. On their turns they all use Cunning Action to duck into the shadows and take the Hide action. Are you saying that at that point you would become surprised and be unable to act or move until you noticed them again?



Surprise has no existence beyond its described effects. The rules are clear about when those effects end.



I reject this interpretation on the grounds that it is possible to be attacked many times before the effects of surprise wear off at the end of your first turn. Surprise has no reality beyond those effects.





I gave them to you for the post to which I was replying. I'm not going to give you any more.

Your hiding ninjas should not be able to gain surprise because they've already been recognized as a threat. However, if a new combatant entered the fight from an unexpected place (dropped out of the sky?), that would present the possibility for surprise with regard to just that new entrant and, most likely, only against his first target

As a DM, I would be more likely to allow my players to get away with that stunt than the monsters. The hissy fit some of my guys would throw if monsters got the extra shot at surprise would continue for weeks. Sort of like dealing with children, a DM has to pick his battles.

 

[jrowland]

Sorry to derail, but I read the thread title again and my mind was having a hard time forming the correct word out of Ass Ass in Ate.

My mind finally fixed itself and formed the coherent word assassinate, but now I can't purge the incoherence. Hopefully it doesn't do the same to you. It's best not to do too much Anal Lysis on these things...

/derail