D&D 5E Assassinate

[Hriston]

Here is the Problem with the Victim hearing the "Bang", The Bullet travels faster than sound, by the time the Victim hears the Bang the bullet hits the target

Surprise, the damage is done

You seem to be making my point for me. To be clear, the rule is: "If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."

You're right in pointing out that this has nothing to do with hearing the bang, and everything to do with noticing your attacker when the attack hits. If your interpretation is that by noticing the attacker the victim is no longer surprised then you must conclude that the victim is not surprised when the attack hits.

 

[Hriston]

Yeah, they become unsurprised after the first attack is resolved.

So, no problem.

This is not what you've been saying.

Your interpretation of the rules is that you cannot simultaneously both notice a threat and be surprised. You have said that if you begin the combat surprised and then notice a threat you become "unsurprised". You've said this ad nauseam.

The problem with this is that the rules say that you do notice the threat when you are hit or missed by an attack. Not after the attack, but when you are attacked. The moment the bullet hits, the victim notices the assassin, and by your reading is no longer surprised. Therefore, the attack will not auto-crit, because the attack is not hitting a surprised creature.

Now you are saying that you become unsurprised a moment after you notice a threat, or are you ignoring the above-cited rule and saying that the threat is noticed a moment after the attack hits?

 

[Monk55]

Trying to stay within the rules as written, please tell me where I'm wrong

First, we have the assassin, stealthing merrily along until he meets up with a target. The assassin attempts to stay stealthy/hidden and makes a stealth roll. The stealth roll exceeds the passive perception score of the target. The assassin is stealthy/hidden. Then the assassin declares an attack. At this point, the DM decides who is surprised. Since the assassin is stealthy/hidden and the target failed to notice him, the target is surprised. Those surprised cannot move or act on their turn, but they can react after their turn. Everyone rolls initiative, including those surprised (I would interject that as DM I would award advantage on the initiative roll to the assassin for being stealthy/hidden and disadvantage to the target for not noticing the assassin). If the surprised target wins initiative, then the assassin's attack roll will not gain advantage from assassinate, since the target will have already taken a turn in combat (in spite of the fact that the target could do nothing on that turn). As far as I can tell, anytime prior to the attack the target is surprised. Winning initiative does not negate surprise. Nothing in the rules negates surprise except a successful or failed attack. So on a successful attack roll (remember, the assassin does not have advantage on the attack roll from assassinate, however, he should probably be given advantage because he is invis and that condition gives advantage), the assassin would auto-crit, since the target is surprised, even if the target wins initiative over the assassin.

 

[Paraxis]

As far as I can tell, anytime prior to the attack the target is surprised. Winning initiative does not negate surprise. Nothing in the rules negates surprise except a successful or failed attack.

That is where you went wrong.

Surprise ends once the surprised creatures first turn is over, it has nothing to do with a successful or failed attack.

Example a creature is surprised and goes on initiative 11, every assassin that attacks that creature before 11 benefits from them being surprised no matter how many attacks have been made against them successful or not. Any assassin that attacks the creature after initiative count 11 does not benefit from the creature being surprised, not because they have been attacked but because their turn has passed.

 

[Monk55]

That is where you went wrong.

Surprise ends once the surprised creatures first turn is over, it has nothing to do with a successful or failed attack.

Example a creature is surprised and goes on initiative 11, every assassin that attacks that creature before 11 benefits from them being surprised no matter how many attacks have been made against them successful or not. Any assassin that attacks the creature after initiative count 11 does not benefit from the creature being surprised, not because they have been attacked but because their turn has passed.

Would you mind citing the rule that says surprise ends when the surprised creatures first turn is over (whether attacked or not). Assassinate says attack advantage is lost, not surprise.

 

[Paraxis]

Would you mind citing the rule that says surprise ends when the surprised creatures first turn is over (whether attacked or not). Assassinate says attack advantage is lost, not surprise.

Sure it wouldn't be the first time in this very long thread. In fact I think it would be around the 3rd or 4th time.

Surprise limits your ability to move or take actions.

After the end of your first turn you are allowed to take reactions.

Reactions are a special type of action.

So if you can take reactions, you are no longer surprised.

Simple logical understanding of the rules in the book.

Here is the sage advice response from Mike Mearls that states the same thing.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/30/how-long-surprise-last/

 

[Monk55]

Sure it wouldn't be the first time in this very long thread. In fact I think it would be around the 3rd or 4th time.

Surprise limits your ability to move or take actions.

After the end of your first turn you are allowed to take reactions.

Reactions are a special type of action.

So if you can take reactions, you are no longer surprised.

Simple logical understanding of the rules in the book.

Here is the sage advice response from Mike Mearls that states the same thing.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/30/how-long-surprise-last/

Nowhere in the rules does it say that if you can take reactions you are no longer surprised. If you want to put that much stock in Mearls' interpretation of the rules, that's fine, but his interpretation is not part of the RAW. Mearls' also interpreted Champion Fighter's Improved Critical as automatically hitting on a roll of 19 even if it would not have been enough to hit otherwise. Not so sure I'm willing to buy into that interpretation either.

As for your assertion that this is a "simple logical understanding of the rules in the book," perhaps you'd care to explain the logic of a target negating surprise when they are unable to act or move on their turn and once their turn ends, can now react to an attack by an assassin the target doesn't know exists.

 

[Paraxis]

Nowhere in the rules does it say that if you can take reactions you are no longer surprised. If you want to put that much stock in Mearls' interpretation of the rules, that's fine, but his interpretation is not part of the RAW. Mearls' also interpreted Champion Fighter's Improved Critical as automatically hitting on a roll of 19 even if it would not have been enough to hit otherwise. Not so sure I'm willing to buy into that interpretation either.

As for your assertion that this is a "simple logical understanding of the rules in the book," perhaps you'd care to explain the logic of a target negating surprise when they are unable to act or move on their turn and once their turn ends, can now react to an attack by an assassin the target doesn't know exists.

It doesn't state directly a good many things in the rules. What it does say is.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

That is it, that is all surprise is/does. So by reading the rules for surprise you can see it limits what you can do on your first turn of combat, and it tells you when you can take reactions. When your turn is over obviously so is surprise.

Mearls statements are not official rules corrections or judgements you are correct, Crawfords are alas we don't have Crawford's response to this question. As a side note, we do have Crawford on champions auto hitting when they score a critical on a 19, and yes they do.

They can react to a target they don't know exists yet because the rules say they can. Let's use a monk as our victim as it fits the example and is your namesake.

A monk is strolling down a road, when suddenly he is ambushed by three ninjas (assassins). The monk is surprised, and initiative is rolled.

The leader assassin goes on 23, a second assassin goes on 18, the monk on 17, and the last assassin goes on 13.

The leader assassin shoots an arrow at the monk, he is surprised and hasn't taken his turn yet. The monk can not use reactions yet. The assassin gets to take full advantage of his class abilities.

The second assassin shoots another arrow at the monk, still surprised because he hasn't had his turn yet the monk is in for a second critical sneak attack if this arrow hits.

The monk goes and takes his turn, he can not move or take any actions on his turn. Once his turn is over he can now make reactions.

The final assassin goes, at this point the monk is no longer surprised, the assassin still benefiting from being hidden though makes an attack with advantage and hits getting in his sneak attack damage. The monk uses deflect missiles class ability as a reaction and reduces the damage.

If the monk would have rolled a 25 on initiative and gone first, they would have been able to use their reaction to deflect the very first arrow that was shot at them because that is what the ability says it can do.

If you can catch an arrow, spend a ki point to throw it back at a ninja, I don't think anyone considers that person surprised anymore.

 

[Monk55]

It doesn't state directly a good many things in the rules. What it does say is.

If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends.

That is it, that is all surprise is/does. So by reading the rules for surprise you can see it limits what you can do on your first turn of combat, and it tells you when you can take reactions. When your turn is over obviously so is surprise.

Mearls statements are not official rules corrections or judgements you are correct, Crawfords are alas we don't have Crawford's response to this question. As a side note, we do have Crawford on champions auto hitting when they score a critical on a 19, and yes they do.

They can react to a target they don't know exists yet because the rules say they can. Let's use a monk as our victim as it fits the example and is your namesake.

A monk is strolling down a road, when suddenly he is ambushed by three ninjas (assassins). The monk is surprised, and initiative is rolled.

The leader assassin goes on 23, a second assassin goes on 18, the monk on 17, and the last assassin goes on 13.

The leader assassin shoots an arrow at the monk, he is surprised and hasn't taken his turn yet. The monk can not use reactions yet. The assassin gets to take full advantage of his class abilities.

The second assassin shoots another arrow at the monk, still surprised because he hasn't had his turn yet the monk is in for a second critical sneak attack if this arrow hits.

The monk goes and takes his turn, he can not move or take any actions on his turn. Once his turn is over he can now make reactions.

The final assassin goes, at this point the monk is no longer surprised, the assassin still benefiting from being hidden though makes an attack with advantage and hits getting in his sneak attack damage. The monk uses deflect missiles class ability as a reaction and reduces the damage.

If the monk would have rolled a 25 on initiative and gone first, they would have been able to use their reaction to deflect the very first arrow that was shot at them because that is what the ability says it can do.

If you can catch an arrow, spend a ki point to throw it back at a ninja, I don't think anyone considers that person surprised anymore.

Thanks so much for the thorough and very reasoned response (and for using my namesake as the example). I'm still trying to reconcile all you have said with the following rule: "If you are hidden—both unseen and unheard—when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." I was interpreting this as the end of surprise, since surprise is first determined by whether or not the assassin is stealthy/hidden.

 

[MG.0]

Ending surprise with the end of the target's first turn is slightly less clunky to run too.

Assassin attacks before target's turn = Advantage plus critical hit.
Assassin attacks after target's turn = Normal attack.

If you run surprise until the end of the round:

Assassin attacks before target's turn = Advantage plus critical hit.
Assassin attacks after target's turn = Normal attack plus critical hit.

I've said several times how you can narratively understand how a target can 'see' and react to an attack that hasn't landed. Yes the assassin was undetected until the start of combat, but that doesn't mean he can completely pull off his attack without the target noticing and reacting in time to lessen the damage of the assassin's attack. All it needs to be is a hint of danger to allow the target to slow his pace, or turn slightly, etc.

If it makes no sense for a target to escape the critical damage from an attack he didn't see coming after his initiative comes up, then it would make equally little sense for the assassin not to get advantage either. I fully believe the intent of the assassin ability was for it to fully end after the target's initiative is reached.