Assay Spell Resistance


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I wonder how many people arguing against this spell have actually played a high-level arcane spellcaster.

Because let me tell you, it is incredibly frustrating to watch your spells bounce off your enemies like ping-pong balls because of the SR and incredibly high saving throw bonuses that many high CR monsters possess. If there's something out there that helps deal with that problem, I'm all for it.
 

Grog said:
I wonder how many people arguing against this spell have actually played a high-level arcane spellcaster.

Because let me tell you, it is incredibly frustrating to watch your spells bounce off your enemies like ping-pong balls because of the SR and incredibly high saving throw bonuses that many high CR monsters possess. If there's something out there that helps deal with that problem, I'm all for it.

I'm sure your fighter really sympathizes with you when you stop time, figure out the future, and go invisible when he's facing the big nasty. I have played a high level caster, and there's so many more things a wizard can do then a fighter. Considering you can easy take out a creature with one high level spell, I have no sympathy when you don't beat SR:)
 

Stalker0 said:
However, while evocation vs conjuration balance may have been somewhat restored, it shatters the balance that SR brings to high level casters.
I don't see it bringing any balance to casters. As I've pointed out in the past, "lopsided" is not "balanced". The thing is, SR is a big, fat all-or-nothing, and yet DM's hang all their hopes on it keeping their bad guys safe from instant defeat by a single spell. So, really what they're hoping for is a lot of "nothing", at least for the first few rounds, and apparently a lot of them begrudge the notion of it being bypassed. Might as well just say all spells past a certain level require a coin flip.
 

Felon said:
Your dismissal of the orbs, arc of lightning, and blast of flame is kind of puzzling. You think that because they were added at "the same time" as assay resistance removes them from consideration. That's a bit of a non sequitor, as it actually strengthens the design decision behind introducing assay resistance. The net effect is that with the induction of those conjuration heavy-hitters, assay resistance shored up the stuff that came before it.

My argument is that their introduction to the game later indicates that SR was not initially intended to be largely inconsequential--nor was it initially inconsequential. Only the advent of the orbs and arc of lightning (and to a lesser degree, blast of flame), along with assay resistance made it easily bypassed by many groups. And of that group of spells, I think arc of lightning and the orbs are by far the most significant. Even without assay resistance, the conjurations alone make it relatively easy to bypass SR.

But the fact that the conjuration spells already do that doesn't mean that assay resistance won't do it.

To refer to summon monster as "limited" due to the selection of monsters is also kind of odd. The summon monster spell is in fact as open-ended and flexible as a single offensive spell can get. If you want a weapon for every occasion, you'd be hard-pressed to beat SM's.

Yes and no. It is a very flexible spell, but you don't always have the option to summon something that will be useful. For instance, this weekend, I was playing my cleric (who doesn't quite have the flexibility of an arcane summoner, but still has a lot of flexibility (being neutral good). Even so, with two summon monster VIIs prepared, I looked through the list and, when it came to fighting the advanced ice devil or the marilith that our party faced, I realized that there wasn't much of anything on the summon monster list that would be a helpful summon. Everything had either too low an attack bonus or had spell like abilities that would most likely fail against its spell resistance.

And last of all, saying assay resistance does "nothing" for lightning bolt is flat-out incorrect. It will help penetrate the SR of the creature you're assaying. That you deem it an inefficient use of a spell does not equate to it doing "nothing".

OK, it doesn't do absolutely nothing for lightning bolt. However, in the cases where you would use assay resistance with a lightning bolt, your caster is much more likely to simply use an orb spell or arc of lightning. Since my experience is that most casters will generally have orbs or an arc of lightning prepared as well as the lightning bolt, fireball, etc, assay resistance generally doesn't increase the use of arc of lightning in practice, even if, in theory, it would benefit.

Melf's arrow is not the damage-dealer that scorching ray is, to be sure. But it is a long range spell, which wizards are lacking at that level, and of course it was at one time a good spell for beating SR, before the lesser orbs came along. The damage always was a little too low, and I suspect that the general disfavor for it and other "damage-over-time-spells" was one of those lackluster conjuration attack spells that nudged the designer's towards giving conjuration spells a bit more "oomph". Of course, they over-oomphed in many people's opinions.

Maybe. Of course, they haven't been consistently over-oomphing everything. For instance, I used to like the vitriolic sphere spell even though it was damage over time. When they de-oomphed it in the spell compendium, that was when I stopped liking it.
 
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In fact, I play wizards almost exclusively, though I've recently branched into playing beguilers.

As a wizard, you have more options than any other PC. If you face monsters with high SR, you can divide the battlefield with a wall of force, buff the party with haste or other spells, use glitterdust, or summon creatures, to name a few. Fighters have far fewer options when they encounter a creature with high DR.

Grog said:
I wonder how many people arguing against this spell have actually played a high-level arcane spellcaster.

Because let me tell you, it is incredibly frustrating to watch your spells bounce off your enemies like ping-pong balls because of the SR and incredibly high saving throw bonuses that many high CR monsters possess. If there's something out there that helps deal with that problem, I'm all for it.
 

Its about compremise not about going from one extreme to another.
I agree maybe casters have it tough against SR. Maybe 2 feats arnt worth it to get +2 (or so) to your roll. You already made a good sugestion about keeping your spell if it doesn't bypass SR or was that sacasm? Maybe it need some extra thought but its a start.

Btw have you ever DM'ed? If not you should try :)

Cheers
Z

Felon said:
I don't see it bringing any balance to casters. As I've pointed out in the past, "lopsided" is not "balanced". The thing is, SR is a big, fat all-or-nothing, and yet DM's hang all their hopes on it keeping their bad guys safe from instant defeat by a single spell. So, really what they're hoping for is a lot of "nothing", at least for the first few rounds, and apparently a lot of them begrudge the notion of it being bypassed. Might as well just say all spells past a certain level require a coin flip.
 

This is true even without SR... a lot of high level wizard spells kill or capture an opponent by their nature. If I cast Hold Monster, either we win, or I accomplished nothing.

Because of this, it's bad adventure design to rely too much on a single BBEG.

I actually think that in 4E, all spells should have an 'ablative' effect. For example, a failed Hold Monster might inflict 'damage' to a creature's Will save that doesn't 'heal' until the end of the encounter.

Ken



Felon said:
I don't see it bringing any balance to casters. As I've pointed out in the past, "lopsided" is not "balanced". The thing is, SR is a big, fat all-or-nothing, and yet DM's hang all their hopes on it keeping their bad guys safe from instant defeat by a single spell. So, really what they're hoping for is a lot of "nothing", at least for the first few rounds, and apparently a lot of them begrudge the notion of it being bypassed. Might as well just say all spells past a certain level require a coin flip.
 

Yes i agree.
Any monster that is incapasitated for even 1 round will get the :):):):):) beaten out of them.

Unfortuanately im using a Module and like most modules they dont include many of the new spells, feats, classes etc. Yes i could rewrite the NPCs, monster etc but i only really have time to read the adventure, plan tactics, read up on spells and abilities, not to rebuild the module. I will start swapping a few spells per NPC. What cleric wouldn't want Superior Resistance (+6 to all save for 24 hours)

The Players didnt like the rule about keeping the spell if it doesnt beat the SR. They said
it doesnt keep in tradition with the game as a spell caster. Funny that was pretty much my point SR and the Assay spell in the first place.

Cheers
Z


Haffrung Helleyes said:
This is true even without SR... a lot of high level wizard spells kill or capture an opponent by their nature. If I cast Hold Monster, either we win, or I accomplished nothing.

Because of this, it's bad adventure design to rely too much on a single BBEG.

I actually think that in 4E, all spells should have an 'ablative' effect. For example, a failed Hold Monster might inflict 'damage' to a creature's Will save that doesn't 'heal' until the end of the encounter.

Ken
 

It's a div spell... would mind blank and/or nondetection (on the target) block the "understanding of how to overcome your foe's resistance to your magic"?

Would a target under the effect of mirror image get a chance to have the assay resistance attached to one of the figments?

Would Blinking stop AR if I was Ethereal at the time?

etc.

Mike
 

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