Assay Spell Resistance

I think Assay Resistance is fine. If a caster feels he needs to blow a 4th level spell slot to have his spells most effective then more power to him. I rather have him cast this spell before a fight with a BBEG than to go into the fight and have half of his spells be totally ineffective, even before saves!

If I were to change anything about the spell I'd increase the casting time, but I think it is tolerable as swift with it effecting only 1 target.
 

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Felon said:
"Even worse"? I'm interested in your reasoning here.

because it effectively means the caster can instantly (no real opportunity cost since it is a swift action) get the benefit of effectively ignoring SR for ALL their spells, not just certain damaging ones.
 

I wouldn't go so far as to call it "all" their spells. For each spell you want to go through, you're going to need a 4th (or higher) level slot. In games where you know you're only going to have one or two encounters - yes, this seems pretty powerful, because blowing your wad isn't going to hurt so much. But when you have many encounters per day, it severely restricts the "endless" ability to use this spell.

But then again, if a mage gets to use all their spells in a single encounter, they're going to outshine everyone else, anyway.

Honestly, I'm still in the camp that says after the orb spells, something like this is a welcome addition to all the evokers/enchanters/etc. out there. I don't think it's unbalanced to allow a caster to spend two spells to have a greater chance that one will work.
 

evilbob said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "all" their spells. For each spell you want to go through, you're going to need a 4th (or higher) level slot. In games where you know you're only going to have one or two encounters - yes, this seems pretty powerful, because blowing your wad isn't going to hurt so much. But when you have many encounters per day, it severely restricts the "endless" ability to use this spell.

The original poster quotes a duration of 1 round/level, so that's all the spells for that encounter (you don't need to cast it once for each of the spells you want to use, just once per encounter).

I don't think that a good way of solving one bad problem (orb spells) is to introduce another bad problem (assay resistance). Better to just get rid of the first problem. After all, if allowing bigger heads on tennis rackets upped the speed of the tennis ball too much, you wouldn't expect them to 'fix' it by tacking on another change like reducing the pressure of the tennis ball, would you.

Oh wait...
 


evilbob said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "all" their spells. For each spell you want to go through, you're going to need a 4th (or higher) level slot. In games where you know you're only going to have one or two encounters - yes, this seems pretty powerful, because blowing your wad isn't going to hurt so much. But when you have many encounters per day, it severely restricts the "endless" ability to use this spell.
As Plane Sailing points out, assay resistance has a duration, so it's not just one spell. Limiting it to one spell would certainly make it okay in my book (I think). And, using this spell only once a day is a significant advantage. As an example, how about giving the fighter the ability to lower his target's AC by 10 (no save, no SR) as a swift action and then allow him to take full attacks for 1 round / level. That's an analogy of what Assay Resistance does.
 

Y'all seem to be forgetting just how ineefective certain schools of magic get. The main effect of assay is to take away, more like reduce, one of the 4 levels of armor that critters have versus spells.
I'm sorry if I dont feel bad about getting thru SR when I still have to contend with saves, resistances and outright immunities.
 

Felon said:
Not a big fan of reiteration, but...let's forget what ideas other parts of D&D are designed with and confront the reality: Spell Resistance is trivially circumvented. Summon monster, elbemental orbs, melf's acid arrow, arc of lightning, blast of flame, and any number of other SR-ignoring spells make it simplicity. All this spell does is put lightning bolt back in the running.

I don't think this is true. If we look at the items you list separately and your conclusion, they don't all add up:

Summon Monster: 1 round casting time, limited summon selections, and frequently hampered by the other defenses of spell resistance monsters (DR, etc).

Elemental Orbs: Remember these were added the same time as Assay Resistance. They have no impact on the pre-Assay Resistance game design paradigm.

Melf's Acid Arrow: This sorry waste of a second level spell slot doesn't even contribute to making SR trivial.

Arc of Lightning, Blast of Flame, etc: Again, these were added at the same time as Assay Resistance. Without them, defeating SR is not trivial. And the original design paradigm did not include them.

And now for conclusion at the end: Assay Resistance does nothing for lightning bolt. Assay Resistance is a single target spell while lightning bolt is an area which is not worth its third level spell slot unless it usually catches two or more opponents. Assay Resistance may help Scorching Ray, dismissal, finger of death, magic missile, etc against SR, but it doesn't do much for area effect spells.

Can't say it's a very compelling arguement to suggest that a spell (or some other mechanic) is an overpowered option because it could infringe on the near-monopoly that a feat (or some other mechanic) previously had.

There is a rather egregious assumption here that Assay Resistance requires a meager cost, that it can always be at hand just like Spell Penetration. 4th-level spells are just sand off a beach? Every time you fight a monster with SR, this spell would have to be recast. I don't see the niche for Spell Pen disappearing, just shrinking.

This depends upon the level and the caster, but in general, it's quite right--and it doesn't address the other significant factor: Casting time. Swift actions are an increasingly scarce resource and the caster who uses nerveskitter, swift fly, greater mirror image, or casts a quickened scorching ray may not have the swift action left to cast this spell. Especially at higher levels (which is where you start being able to afford to use a 4th level spell to make your other spells better against a single target from a very limited range of targets), the choice to cast nerveskitter before combat or assay resistance in the first round is not an obvious one. Similarly, the choice to use your quickened attack spells or assay resistance in the first round is not obvious unless you have non non-resistance targets and/or you know that you have less than a 60% chance of penetrating the resistance.

Maybe I'm not playing enough 20th-level characters these days, but...no, it would stink if it only lasted a round. Expend a 4th-level spell just to improve the chance of making an SR check? That's poop.

I'll disagree here. High level combats are often over very quickly. A 4th level spell slot is easily worth it in order to make sure that you don't lose your finger of death or wrathful castigation to spell resistance. (The question is much more one of the opportunity cost of the action). As a player, I would expect it to benefit, on average, less than two spells per casting anyway. There would be the odd times that I used it to nail a pit fiend and had to keep hammering for several rounds. However, I would expect the times when I used it to ensure nailing one of multiple foes (who would then be killed before I acted again) or when the spell it boosts eliminates the foe, or my best move in the subsequent round to be an orb spell anyway to bring down the average number of spells benefitting from it significantly.
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
I don't think this is true. If we look at the items you list separately and your conclusion, they don't all add up:

Summon Monster: 1 round casting time, limited summon selections, and frequently hampered by the other defenses of spell resistance monsters (DR, etc).

Elemental Orbs: Remember these were added the same time as Assay Resistance. They have no impact on the pre-Assay Resistance game design paradigm.

Melf's Acid Arrow: This sorry waste of a second level spell slot doesn't even contribute to making SR trivial.

Arc of Lightning, Blast of Flame, etc: Again, these were added at the same time as Assay Resistance. Without them, defeating SR is not trivial. And the original design paradigm did not include them.

And now for conclusion at the end: Assay Resistance does nothing for lightning bolt. Assay Resistance is a single target spell while lightning bolt is an area which is not worth its third level spell slot unless it usually catches two or more opponents. Assay Resistance may help Scorching Ray, dismissal, finger of death, magic missile, etc against SR, but it doesn't do much for area effect spells.
Your dismissal of the orbs, arc of lightning, and blast of flame is kind of puzzling. You think that because they were added at "the same time" as assay resistance removes them from consideration. That's a bit of a non sequitor, as it actually strengthens the design decision behind introducing assay resistance. The net effect is that with the induction of those conjuration heavy-hitters, assay resistance shored up the stuff that came before it.

To refer to summon monster as "limited" due to the selection of monsters is also kind of odd. The summon monster spell is in fact as open-ended and flexible as a single offensive spell can get. If you want a weapon for every occasion, you'd be hard-pressed to beat SM's.

And last of all, saying assay resistance does "nothing" for lightning bolt is flat-out incorrect. It will help penetrate the SR of the creature you're assaying. That you deem it an inefficient use of a spell does not equate to it doing "nothing".

Melf's arrow is not the damage-dealer that scorching ray is, to be sure. But it is a long range spell, which wizards are lacking at that level, and of course it was at one time a good spell for beating SR, before the lesser orbs came along. The damage always was a little too low, and I suspect that the general disfavor for it and other "damage-over-time-spells" was one of those lackluster conjuration attack spells that nudged the designer's towards giving conjuration spells a bit more "oomph". Of course, they over-oomphed in many people's opinions.
 
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Felon said:
Your dismissal of the orbs, arc of lightning, and blast of flame is kind of puzzling. You think that because they were added at "the same time" as assay resistance removes them from consideration. That's a bit of a non sequitor, as it actually strengthens the design decision behind introducing assay resistance. The net effect is that with the induction of those conjuration heavy-hitters, assay resistance shored up the stuff that came before it.

However, while evocation vs conjuration balance may have been somewhat restored, it shatters the balance that SR brings to high level casters. As has been mentioned before, the problem isn't that SR is too hard to beat at high levels, the problem was conjurers suddenly becoming the gods of the game.
 

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