Astral Construct vs. Shadow

[Jhaelen]

Do they have to use a slam attack or can they use a melee touch?

They have to use a slam attack. Think of it like a weapon enhancement: You cannot make touch attacks with a frostbrand sword either.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Transdimensional Power, and golem immunity

Sadly, an astral construct cannot even injure an incorporeal foe at all, because its attacks are merely treated as magic for purposes of overcoming dr, while an incorporeal enemy requires an actual +1 enhancement bonus or greater to injure.

Assuming you are able to augment its natural attacks (say a druid casts magic fang on it), the 50% miss chance would still apply.

I'm taking the Transdimensional Power feat this level. So now my powers can affect incorporeal creatures without a miss chance (they work like force effects).

Now what happens if I use the feat and create an astral construct? Will it still have the miss chance? (The feat is from Complete Psionic.) Can I apply the feat to psionic powers manifested from a dorje?

Also, the GM would like clarification on another question: what about golems who have infinite spell resistance in a campaign where magic-psionics transparency is not the rule? Do psionics affect the golem normally? Right now, we're playing that creatures with SR get PR=SR-10 and creatures with PR get SR=PR-10. But what about golems who are immune to spells? Should they be immune to psionics?

 

[azhrei_fje]

They have to use a slam attack. Think of it like a weapon enhancement: You cannot make touch attacks with a frostbrand sword either.

Actually, I was thinking of it more like a spellcaster holding a charge, say something like Ghoul Touch.

What about grappling? If the construct grapples a foe, do they get automatic energy damage every round that the construct is in contact with the other creature? Or should it need to make grapple checks? (Btw, we're using the PathFinder rules for grapple and so on.)

Thanks folks!

 

[Jhaelen]

What about grappling? If the construct grapples a foe, do they get automatic energy damage every round that the construct is in contact with the other creature? Or should it need to make grapple checks? (Btw, we're using the PathFinder rules for grapple and so on.)

Well, I don't know about Pathfinder, but merely being in contact won't cause any damage to a grappler. Have a look at a vampire's level drain for a comparison.

I'm not even sure they can use their slam attack while grappling. Is a slam attack considered a light weapon? If it is, they can make attack rolls with a -4 penalty.

Edit: I should add that I'm less than sure about the above. I've never been really grokking the grapple rules, so you may want to wait for a second opinion...

 

[azhrei_fje]

Yes, your vampire analogy is a very good one. Vampires only do energy drain on a successful slam attack. But suppose the vampire is pinning their opponent? Surely they get a (relatively) free slam attack, right? I've never like the grappling rules for just this reason; creatures with attacks that only require a touch should -- in my book -- always succeed in a grapple. At least, from a logical standpoint (probably not from a game balance standpoint, though).

But yes, natural attacks are considered light weapons. Otherwise creatures like bears wouldn't be able to grapple worth a darn! And that doesn't seem very appropriate, eh?

 

[irdeggman]

(Edit: Maybe I've figured out what you mean. The text says,

So you're saying that multiple Ectopic Form feats cannot be combined on a single construct, but other feats (like Boost Construct) can still be used on constructs created using Ectopic Form. Right? For me this is fine, since my PC isn't going to take Ectopic Form again, but you're right that it's pretty limiting.)

Thanks a bunch for your insight! I'll have to go back and re-read the description of the Ectopic Form feat(s) and see if maybe I missed something.

What I meant was that you can't choose any menu abilities (that was the mix and match I was referring to) for an ectopic form construct, it is exactly as written in the back of the book. It is also the only way to produce such a construct.


This was also clarified in the FAQ

When you create an astral construct using an Ectopic Form feat (Complete Psionic 50), does this replace the normal menu choices allowed when creating an astral construct?


Yes. For example, a character with Ectopic Form (Agile Loper) can use the astral construct power either to create an agile loper astral construct, which uses the base astral construct statistics adjusted as listed for the agile loper entry of that level, or to create a normal astral construct (selecting options from the menus as appropriate).

 

[irdeggman]

Yes, your vampire analogy is a very good one. Vampires only do energy drain on a successful slam attack. But suppose the vampire is pinning their opponent? Surely they get a (relatively) free slam attack, right? I've never like the grappling rules for just this reason; creatures with attacks that only require a touch should -- in my book -- always succeed in a grapple. At least, from a logical standpoint (probably not from a game balance standpoint, though).

But yes, natural attacks are considered light weapons. Otherwise creatures like bears wouldn't be able to grapple worth a darn! And that doesn't seem very appropriate, eh?

It is not merely a "touch" it is a "touch attack" which is indicative of touching sufficiently to do damage and not merely "brushing" a target.

If not applied consistently all touch attacks (see the large spell list) would likewise be so resolved.

Some creatures get "constriction" or similar abilities which automatically (as long as the grapple is maintained) do damage when grappling - so that might be the comparison to look at.

 

[Jhaelen]

But suppose the vampire is pinning their opponent? Surely they get a (relatively) free slam attack, right?

Well, have you ever tried pinning someone? It's a pretty engaging activity that typically requires both hands.

Pinning comes with its own benefits, since the pinned opponent cannot take ANY action at all. The pinned opponent is also treated as having DEX 0 for the purpose of determining AC AND you have a -4 penalty against attackers that aren't grappling you.

While pinning you can:
- try to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check,
- attempt to use your opponent's weapon against him,
- remove a secured object from the pinned creature with a disarm check (opponent gets a +4 bonus against this), or
- move with the pinned creature.

And that's it (according to the Rules Compendium).

 

[azhrei_fje]

What I meant was that you can't choose any menu abilities (that was the mix and match I was referring to) for an ectopic form construct, it is exactly as written in the back of the book. It is also the only way to produce such a construct.

This was also clarified in the FAQ

Wow, that's a bummer! I no longer want that feat! Thank you for the clarification and the quote from the FAQ.

We'll be switching to PathFinder after the Beta comes out, but PF doesn't have any psionics in it (I do have the "U" addendum to PF for psionics, though). When we switch, I'm probably going to dump the Ardent as the mantles seem very constricting (for example, there is no access to detect psionics except through the Knowledge mantle).

Some creatures get "constriction" or similar abilities which automatically (as long as the grapple is maintained) do damage when grappling - so that might be the comparison to look at.

Hmm, will do. Thanks again. I'm learning a lot in this thread.

Well, have you ever tried pinning someone? It's a pretty engaging activity that typically requires both hands.

Well, I had a section of wrestling in high school about ... 30 years ago.

Your point is well taken, though. Thanks!



I appreciate everyone's input in this thread. We're switching to PF when it comes out, so I'll be switching character class. If I choose soulknife I'll probably be back with a lot more questions, so please don't go anywhere! Thanks again!