D&D 5E Astral Sea and Wildspace in the 5e Cosmology


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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I am half asleep and my old books are in crawl spaces, but if I remember it was bigger then a system but WAY smaller then a galaxy. I remember 'space' being able to have multi systems though... lets see if anyone remembers darksun alien halflings with a moon spaceship/deathstar...
I want to say it went twice as far as the distance from the center to the last planet or something like that. Still far less distance than a galaxy.
 


The Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Creatures, seems to imply that some of the things from 2e like gravity well air pockets as still there. The 3e Polyhedron Magazine mini setting, Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon implied things didn't work that way, and that Spelljamming helms provided both breathable air and gravity.

I suspect 5e Spelljammer might be somewhere in between both of them. But at least it seems that someone can shoot a flintlock pistol in the Astral Plane no longer worry about it causing a massive explosion like it did in the Phlogiston.
 


overgeeked

B/X Known World
The Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Creatures, seems to imply that some of the things from 2e like gravity well air pockets as still there. The 3e Polyhedron Magazine mini setting, Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon implied things didn't work that way, and that Spelljamming helms provided both breathable air and gravity.

I suspect 5e Spelljammer might be somewhere in between both of them. But at least it seems that someone can shoot a flintlock pistol in the Astral Plane no longer worry about it causing a massive explosion like it did in the Phlogiston.
As much as I love the original setting, I think gaining regular and reliable access to guns and cannons and gunpowder is a huge improvement. But there were dozens of ways they could have done so without removing the phlogiston. Like the air pocket around a spelljammer ship pushed the phlogiston away. Letting you light fires etc aboard ship. But the phlogiston still pushed you along giving you that sweet bifrost hyperspeed.

But I am disappointed about it being planejammer. I’m going to change a lot of it back to the original. To avoid it being Planescape only it takes forever.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Are you talking Spelljammer or the material plane here?
The material plane is anywhere there is matter.

Most D&D world settings are matter: Forgotten Realms, Oerth, Mystara, Eberron, Dark Sun, etcetera.


But note, the feywild (Witchlight), ethereal (Radiant), and shadowfell (Ravenloft) are immaterial spiritworlds.

Now, Spelljammer is an immaterial astral mindscape.
 


Rogerd1

Explorer
The material plane is anywhere there is matter.
Most D&D world settings are matter: Forgotten Realms, Oerth, Mystara, Eberron, Dark Sun, etcetera.
So this contradicts your previous statements which are below.
The 5e material plane will have reallife astrophysics: vacuum of space, stars being suns vast distances away. Reallife.
Each world setting has its own cosmological assumptions, map and concepts. If a setting is in outerspace, the Spelljammer setting needs a way to respect that. Making Spelljammer a separate mindscape is win-win. The world settings can be whatever they are. The Spelljammer version of one is only an astral reimagination of it. Not the setting itself.
Now for both of these to be true, would be a direct violation of real world physics, so cannot be true. If they are all in the same material plane, then the same laws of physics apply.

Now, Spelljammer is an immaterial astral mindscape.
You may want it to be, but it isn't, as explicitly stated.
Each world has Wildspace mist-like area which precipitates entry into the Astral.
 
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Lyxen

Great Old One
The material plane is anywhere there is matter.

Most D&D world settings are matter: Forgotten Realms, Oerth, Mystara, Eberron, Dark Sun, etcetera.

But note, the feywild (Witchlight), ethereal (Radiant), and shadowfell (Ravenloft) are immaterial spiritworlds.

I don't think they are. They are clearly (from the PH) "Material Echoes", parallel dimensions. Nothing says that they are immaterial and nothing says that they are "spiritworlds". They are clearly in the "The Material Plane" section.

Now, Spelljammer is an immaterial astral mindscape.

We'll have to see what they publish about this.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
The Spelljammer derscription mentions the Rock of Bral being in the astral sea, thus, astral effects apply, including no aging.

That's true, and then they could also do something akin to the Ethereal and deep ethereal and have different rules apply to different areas.

For example, in the "canonical" astral, there is no gravity and no need to breathe, while on the other side, gravity planes and "Air Bubbles" are really something central to "canonical" Spelljammer, so there will need to be some adaptation somewhere, don't you think ?
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
Your read on Wildspace is interesting, and is a good deconstruction, but is clearly not the intent WotC has.

Their intent is that Wildspace is space, and outside of space is the Astral Sea. It really is that simple.
I suspect, the intent of the 5e designers to make the planets in the material plane (Torril, Eberron, Oerth, etcetera), normal planets within a normal outer space surrounded by normal stars.

Toward that purpose, the fantasy physics of wildspace wont be the normal outer space of the material plane. It will be instead astral space.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
That's true, and then they could also do something akin to the Ethereal and deep ethereal and have different rules apply to different areas.

For example, in the "canonical" astral, there is no gravity and no need to breathe, while on the other side, gravity planes and "Air Bubbles" are really something central to "canonical" Spelljammer, so there will need to be some adaptation somewhere, don't you think ?
Yeah, altho both are aspects of the astral plane, I suspect the sea and the wildspace will operate according to different rules. The wildscape will correlate the material world, and behave more like it, but not exactly like it. The canonical fantasy physics of 2e Spelljammer will apply within the astral wildspace.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
I don't think they are. They are clearly (from the PH) "Material Echoes", parallel dimensions. Nothing says that they are immaterial and nothing says that they are "spiritworlds". They are clearly in the "The Material Plane" section.
Ghosts are immaterial spirits, and appear representative of the shadowfell as a spiritworld. By extention, the fey too are spirits, including nature spirits.

The gloomy mists of the shadowfell are likewise the insubstantiality of shadow stuff.

The 4e shadowfell merged the earlier 3e ether and shadow, and is insubstantial ethereality. 5e shadowfell and feywild are similarly ethereal. (I view both as aspects of the ethereal plane, influenced by positivity and negativity, respectively.)

Note the material plane includes the shallow ethereal. This shallow ether can see and interact even with matter.
 

Yaarel

Mind Mage
So this contradicts your previous statements which are below.


Now for both of these to be true, would be a direct violation of real world physics, so cannot be true. If they are all in the same material plane, then the same laws of physics apply.


You may want it to be, but it isn't, as explicitly stated.
Each world has Wildspace mist-like area which precipitates entry into the Astral.
The planet of Dark Sun has matter and is material, with immaterial gravity, orbiting a sun, and so on, as is normal for reallife astrophysics.

We will see what the 5e Dark Sun looks like. But unless said otherwise, we can expect a planet to have normal gravity for its size, and so on.
 

Deadstop

Explorer
The planet of Dark Sun has matter and is material, with immaterial gravity, orbiting a sun, and so on, as is normal for reallife astrophysics.

We will see what the 5e Dark Sun looks like. But unless said otherwise, we can expect a planet to have normal gravity for its size, and so on.

The planets of Realmspace, Greyspace, and Krynnspace in 2e Speljammer are also material, existing in a vacuum.

But other things, like ships and dragons, also carry an Earth-normal gravity plane and an atmosphere envelope. That‘s the Spelljammer “fantasy physics.”

That can still be the case in 5e Spelljammer, without breaking anything about the individual settings. (How often outside Spelljammer do they talk about what it’s like outside the atmosphere of, say, Toril?) The virtual reality thing is an interesting take but entirely unnecessary.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Yeah, altho both are aspects of the astral plane, I suspect the sea and the wildspace will operate according to different rules. The wildscape will correlate the material world, and behave more like it, but not exactly like it. The canonical fantasy physics of 2e Spelljammer will apply within the astral wildspace.

That would be a very profound change of the astral plane, and would be completely contrary to what has been published in 5e so far: "The Astral Plane is the realm of thought and dream, where visitors travel as disembodied souls to reach the planes of the divine and demonic. It is a great, silvery sea, the same above and below, with swirling wisps of white and gray streaking among motes of light resembling distant stars. Erratic whirlpools of color flicker in midair like spinning coins. Occasional bits of solid matter can be found here, but most of the Astral Plane is an endless, open domain."

Ghosts are immaterial spirits, and appear representative of the shadowfell as a spiritworld.

That is incorrect. Ghosts come from the ethereal, not the shadowfell: "Ethereal Sight. The ghost can see 60 feet into the Ethereal Plane when it is on the Material Plane, and vice versa."

By extention, the fey too are spirits, including nature spirits.

There is no such extension, and feys are not spirit. There are fey spirits in addition to normal feys, true, but it's not a rule.

The gloomy mists of the shadowfell are likewise the insubstantiality of shadow stuff.

Not at all, it is a material plane, and not insubstantial at all.

The 4e shadowfell merged the earlier 3e ether and shadow, and is insubstantial ethereality.

Again, no, It was not the case even in 4e: "Close by the mortal world lie its echoes, the parallel planes: the Feywild and the Shadowfell. Parallel
planes are strange copies of the material world." They are copies and absolutely no insubstantial or ethereal.

5e shadowfell and feywild are similarly ethereal. (I view both as aspects of the ethereal plane, influenced by positivity and negativity, respectively.)

You can view them that way, but it's not the way they are described at all. They are specifically described in the section about the material plane, they have nothing ethereal, and the ethereal plane is described as a transtitive plane quite separately.

Note the material plane includes the shallow ethereal. This shallow ether can see and interact even with matter.

No, it does not include it. It's just that the "shallow" ethereal is coterminous with the material, but it's not included in it, and it does not interact with matter, only with magical constructs specifically made to extend there like force effects.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I feel like the answer will be, you COULD shift to the Astral once far enough away from the gravity well of a system, but you might not, and sail off into the intersteller void at a snail's pace.

This way, the stars in the sky can still be actual stars, and the "crystal" spheres are just the demarcation line.

Edit: and the "void" is where the cthulhu/far realm things are....so good luck with that...
 


SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Of course this raises the question, why not just develop a spell that moves your ship directly to the Astral, or open a Gate and sail through?
 

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