At 1st level, how powerful would you say PCs are in any edition of D&D?

[pemerton]

Prof C, I like to leave it open whether the teamwork equates to friendship. In my game there have on occasion been arguments among the players at the table that result from decisions (mostly about healing, but sometimes also about targetting) where one player feels another players had made decisions based purely on tactical expediency rather than loyalty and "backing your mates".

 

[S'mon]

A lone PC is pretty much a tasty snack for an even leveled monster.

I'm pretty sure my 2nd level Thief could take down a lone 2nd level standard monster ok. But our group of 5 2nd level PCs could probably beat 5 4th level monsters, whereas a single one would almost certainly kill me alone.

 

[Hussar]

I'm not terribly convinced S'mon. Your lone 2nd level Thief loses his backstab in most cases since it's so hard to gain CA without flanking. Not impossible, but much harder. A Soldier or Brute is going to burn through your HP in a hurry while being able to soak most of what you dish out. Skirmisher? Yeah, you're gonna crush him. Lurker? I'd say even money.

But, that's quibbling, I pretty much agree with what you're saying. It's not like your 2nd level Thief can drop a hill giant in a single round at 1st level like a 2e fighter can.

 

[S'mon]

I'm not terribly convinced S'mon. Your lone 2nd level Thief loses his backstab in most cases since it's so hard to gain CA without flanking. Not impossible, but much harder. A Soldier or Brute is going to burn through your HP in a hurry while being able to soak most of what you dish out. Skirmisher? Yeah, you're gonna crush him. Lurker? I'd say even money.

But, that's quibbling, I pretty much agree with what you're saying. It's not like your 2nd level Thief can drop a hill giant in a single round at 1st level like a 2e fighter can.

Ambush Trick gives me Combat Advantage vs a lone enemy. A typical 2nd level enemy has around 38 hp (CON 14, 8x3). Brute ca 44 hp (CON 14, 10x3). AC 18 if soldier, 16 skirmisher, 14 Brute.

With Init +10 I'll likely win initiative, my Backstab is ATT +17 for 1d4+3d8+9, avg 25 damage; in the circumstances I might even action point & make a 2nd attack, no sneak attack bonus but still ATT+14 for 1d4+9, avg 11.5 damage - Heroic Effort if I miss. That's avg 36.5, if I rolled lucky he might be dead already. I'll probably survive the monster's first attack (I have 28 hp, he averages 10 damage, 12 if Brute), then use Ambush Trick sneak attack at ATT +14 for 1d4+2d8+9, avg 20.5 damage, he should now be dead.

 

[pemerton]

It's not like your 2nd level Thief can drop a hill giant in a single round at 1st level like a 2e fighter can.

Not that I doubt you, but I am curious - can you show us your working?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Not that I doubt you, but I am curious - can you show us your working?

I'm guessing it's something like 18/00 Strength, double specialization for multiple attacks per round, and some good rolls (benefitting from the longsword's increased damage die against larger enemies).

EDIT:

Here you go.

Hill Giants in 2E have hit dice of 12 + 1-2 Hit Points, which is really 12d8+1-2, or somewhere between 13 and 98 total HP.

A first-level Fighter with specialization in a weapon and 18/00 Strength gets:

Attacks: 3/2 attacks per round (so, no bonus attacks until round 2)
Strength: +3 attack, +6 damage
Specialization: +1 attack, +2 damage

... +8 damage above his normal roll.

A two-handed sword wielded against a large creature does 3d6 damage (a longsword does 1d12).

So, his max damage result is:

Weapon: 18
Strength: 6
Spec: 2
--------
Total: 26

While that won't kill very many Hill Giants in one go, it'll kill at least a few of them.

 

[Fifth Element]

Ambush Trick gives me Combat Advantage vs a lone enemy. A typical 2nd level enemy has around 38 hp (CON 14, 8x3). Brute ca 44 hp (CON 14, 10x3). AC 18 if soldier, 16 skirmisher, 14 Brute.

With Init +10 I'll likely win initiative, my Backstab is ATT +17 for 1d4+3d8+9, avg 25 damage; in the circumstances I might even action point & make a 2nd attack, no sneak attack bonus but still ATT+14 for 1d4+9, avg 11.5 damage - Heroic Effort if I miss. That's avg 36.5, if I rolled lucky he might be dead already. I'll probably survive the monster's first attack (I have 28 hp, he averages 10 damage, 12 if Brute), then use Ambush Trick sneak attack at ATT +14 for 1d4+2d8+9, avg 20.5 damage, he should now be dead.

Well yes, but of course a striker is going to have the best chance to take down a single enemy, since strikers are meant to deal piles of damage to single enemies at a time.

 

[Hussar]

Ambush Trick gives me Combat Advantage vs a lone enemy. A typical 2nd level enemy has around 38 hp (CON 14, 8x3). Brute ca 44 hp (CON 14, 10x3). AC 18 if soldier, 16 skirmisher, 14 Brute.

With Init +10 I'll likely win initiative, my Backstab is ATT +17 for 1d4+3d8+9, avg 25 damage; in the circumstances I might even action point & make a 2nd attack, no sneak attack bonus but still ATT+14 for 1d4+9, avg 11.5 damage - Heroic Effort if I miss. That's avg 36.5, if I rolled lucky he might be dead already. I'll probably survive the monster's first attack (I have 28 hp, he averages 10 damage, 12 if Brute), then use Ambush Trick sneak attack at ATT +14 for 1d4+2d8+9, avg 20.5 damage, he should now be dead.

How did you get those kinds of numbers at 2nd level? I'll admit, I don't have essentials, so, I'm still stuck with the standard Rogue, but, +5 for stat bonus, +3 for dagger, +1 for Rogue using a dagger +1 for level and +2 for CA=+12. Where's the other +5 attack bonus coming from?

And, how do you do 3d8 for backstab and not 2d8, even with the feat? Or is this an Essentials thing?

Not that I doubt you, but I am curious - can you show us your working?

F1 with 18/00 str using 2 weapon fighting, specs in longsword and a shortsword. Note, I didn't say in the first round, I said one round, so, I was counting the second attack from specs.

1d12+6(str)+2(specs)+1d12+6+2+1d8+6=54 points of damage in a single round vs a larger than mansized creature.

Note, that with any percentile strength, he's still capable of 45 points of damage. Average 2e hill giant has 55 hit points, so, while I can't kill every hill giant, I can kill about half of them.

 

[airwalkrr]

I chose none of the above as this is a highly subjective question and always relative to the DM.

I just yesterday began playing in a campaign where the DM wanted us all to roll up 9th-level characters. He did this because he hasn't ever really gotten past 9th-level in any of his campaigns. However, our characters didn't seem like the real movers and shakers that being 9th-level ought to be. Don't get me wrong, the campaign was quite fun and I thought the DM did a fantastic job, but we generally just seemed to be playing hired mercenaries. We had to go looking for work because apparently people with the skills of 9th-level characters weren't in high demand, almost as if there were plenty of other 9th-level characters and above around to deal with things.

By contrast I recently played in a campaign where our characters began at level 1 and we seemed to be the only heroes in the land. When an important book was stolen, we were the only ones with the wherewithal to retrieve it from the very dangerous and scary kobolds. And when orcs were roaming through the countryside, we were the only ones with the gumption and skills necessary to rid the land of the threat. Even at 1st-level, we were very powerful.

A whole lot depends upon the setting provided by the DM and the way plots are presented to the PCs. I present the Shackled City adventure path as an example of a campaign where the player characters are THE heroes of the land. Sure there are other adventurers around, but the player characters get locked up in a plot to destroy an entire city and only their unique experiences and knowledge can save the city from disaster. But take a look at some of the adventures in the old Against the Giants series. To me those adventures seem like a bunch of guys with swords and spells just want to kill a bunch of giants and take their stuff, and there's nothing particularly powerful about that. Anyone with swords and spells could do it. Both can be equally exciting, but power is something that is relative.

 

[S'mon]

How did you get those kinds of numbers at 2nd level? I'll admit, I don't have essentials, so, I'm still stuck with the standard Rogue, but, +5 for stat bonus, +3 for dagger, +1 for Rogue using a dagger +1 for level and +2 for CA=+12. Where's the other +5 attack bonus coming from?
And, how do you do 3d8 for backstab and not 2d8, even with the feat? Or is this an Essentials thing?

Essentials - Essentials Thieves I think are a good bit more powerful than PHB Rogues at low level. It seems to even out later. The books the GM allows are Essentials, PHB, and PHB2. Larsenio is built with Heroes of the Fallen Lands + Backstabber feat from PHB.

Tricks: Ambush Trick gives CA & thus sneak attack vs a lone enemy. Tactical Trick gives CA & sneak att vs enemy with one of my allies adjacent.

My only magic item is a level 1 magic dagger, which is turning into a signature item as I'm using it in preference to eg shortbow for ranged attacks - less damage, but very convenient not to have to keep swapping weapons.

Larsenio's Sneak Attack:
Attack: +5 DEX +3 Proficiency +1 magic +1 Thief Weapon Talent +1 Level +1 Light Blade Expertise +2 Combat Advantage = +14
Damage: +5 DEX +1 magic +2 weapon finesse +1 Light Blade Expertise with CA = +9, +2d8 Sneak Attack with Backstabber feat, 1d4 Dagger = 1d4+2d8+9

Total: ATT +14 dam 1d4+2d8+9

Backstab 1/encounter adds +3 to hit, +1d8 damage, for ATT +17 dam 1d4+3d8+9

If I miss I can Heroic Effort 1/encounter for +4 to hit.

My Init +10 is DEX 20 (+5), +1 level, +4 improved initiative.

Note that I put everything possible into maxing out my to-hit bonus, on the basis that a Striker absolutely has to be hitting to be effective, and there are 2 other PCs the monsters focus on - our defender Fighter and especially the minotaur melee Ranger with his AC 14 is just too tasty a target for them to pass up. My damage is not maxed out in that a shortbow would do more damage (d8 instead of d4) but I don't have money for a magic shortbow and I think the dagger fits my character concept better anyway.

I used to have Toughness, but I swapped it out on levelling since I was never being attacked. At 1st level my sneak attack was ATT +11 dam 1d4+2D6+8. On reaching 2nd I swapped out Toughness for Backstabber and took Light Blade Expertise (ATT+1, +1 damage vs targets you have CA against). And +1 for Thief Weapon Talent kicks in at 2nd in Essentials. So levelling up increased my ATT +3 and my average damage +3 too.