Atheism in DnD Campaigns

[Umbran]

It would be interesting to hear a character proclaim that there are no gods even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Ah, it isn't that hard, really. There's a lot of evidence, but it is all circumstantial and anecdotal. Everyone says these things, but nobody can prove it. No mortal, anyway. And actual visitation by divine beings to prove exactly what's going on are prety slim...

 

[Kanegrundar]

Ah, it isn't that hard, really. There's a lot of evidence, but it is all circumstantial and anecdotal. Everyone says these things, but nobody can prove it. No mortal, anyway. And actual visitation by divine beings to prove exactly what's going on are prety slim...

I agree for the most part, but there is usually something in my campaigns that pretty much proves the existence of uber-powerful beings (gods). The agnostics are interesting in that regard. They are filled with a sense of wonder by being in a god's realm or speaking with a god's avatar, but most simply write it off. They believe in something *beyond* the pantheons. A higher force that drive even these "gods."

Kane

 

[Humanophile]

Flipping the question around, how often are D&D characters going to experience a modern, judeo-christian perspective on what a god is? I'm seeing a lot of that perspective here, but I'm hard pressed to think of a world where the same events came to pass. (Granted, it's theoretically possible, but with big-outsider gods, how likely is someone to develop a theory of an inaccessable, omnipotent, modern-style god?)

So I'm seeing little basis for D&D athiesm in a standard campaign, simply because their definition of the word "God" is miles away from ours. Attitudes from blase apathy to outright Athar-ish "damn meddlesome things ruining it for humanity", would probably filter down from the more powerful adventuring types, but that would depend on the actions of gods and religions.

Granted, the perceptions and actions of religious institutions (in any world with D&D style gods, there will be those devoted to worshipping them, athiest population or no,) could be a whole seperate (although intertwined) issue, but that's a debate for later...

 

[Kahuna Burger]

So I'm seeing little basis for D&D athiesm in a standard campaign, simply because their definition of the word "God" is miles away from ours. Attitudes from blase apathy to outright Athar-ish "damn meddlesome things ruining it for humanity", would probably filter down from the more powerful adventuring types, but that would depend on the actions of gods and religions.

I think that people are ignoring the impact of avowed disbeliefers or "humaniodists" to steal a phrase, performing the exact same actions as the clerics can. A non-god-alligned cleric (which the rules specificly allow for) going around doing a Amazing Randi routine would make for a pretty interesting PC.

If the only major supernatural event a small village ever witnesses is a wandering sorcerer using Control Weather to water their dying crops - after a month of the local low grade clerics saying that this is the trial of our god and we must overcome it by faith - is belief in (and worship of) gods going to be strengthened or lessened?

PS, on a part I snipped, I think one of the ancient greek plays (the clouds?) specificly introduced the idea of a "higher" less accessable godhead that ruled over even the mortal like gods. The idea is not so new and original as christians might believe, they're just the ones that made it stick.

Kahuna Burger

 

[The Blue Elf]

I think that people are ignoring the impact of avowed disbeliefers or "humaniodists" to steal a phrase, performing the exact same actions as the clerics can. A non-god-alligned cleric (which the rules specificly allow for) going around doing a Amazing Randi routine would make for a pretty interesting PC.

If the only major supernatural event a small village ever witnesses is a wandering sorcerer using Control Weather to water their dying crops - after a month of the local low grade clerics saying that this is the trial of our god and we must overcome it by faith - is belief in (and worship of) gods going to be strengthened or lessened?

PS, on a part I snipped, I think one of the ancient greek plays (the clouds?) specificly introduced the idea of a "higher" less accessable godhead that ruled over even the mortal like gods. The idea is not so new and original as christians might believe, they're just the ones that made it stick.

Kahuna Burger

Well some of the Players who play don't bother to worship them.For example Kitara from Dragon lance 5th age she didn't believe in the gods she thought the gods were long gone untill she saw a real dragon name immortus, and she started praying to the Dark Queen goddess.She really didn't care for the Godddess the reason she was using the goddess as a way to advance her career to the highest level becoming a Dragon Lord also a tyrant.

 

[Humanophile]

I think that people are ignoring the impact of avowed disbeliefers or "humaniodists" to steal a phrase, performing the exact same actions as the clerics can. A non-god-alligned cleric (which the rules specificly allow for) going around doing a Amazing Randi routine would make for a pretty interesting PC.

If the only major supernatural event a small village ever witnesses is a wandering sorcerer using Control Weather to water their dying crops - after a month of the local low grade clerics saying that this is the trial of our god and we must overcome it by faith - is belief in (and worship of) gods going to be strengthened or lessened?

I think you're overestimating humanoids in general. Remember, we're speaking as (I would assume) an educated, comfortable segment of society. Someone else pointed out the other, intangible benefits of religion, and society would have to advance far beyond D&D standard before other sources could take up slack. "Humanoidism" is a luxury POV for the upper classes, even though ironically it serves the tangible and "fuzzy" (e.g. education, social mobility, etc.) needs of the lower classes better than your average theocracy. Granted, it has the potential to be a popular viewpoint for PC's and those they usually deal with, but that should be dealt with on a character-by character basis. Similar to real life, a highly religious character and a human(oid)ist may find themselves unable to work together, or may become the best of friends.

PS, on a part I snipped, I think one of the ancient greek plays (the clouds?) specificly introduced the idea of a "higher" less accessable godhead that ruled over even the mortal like gods. The idea is not so new and original as christians might believe, they're just the ones that made it stick.

Kahuna Burger

That's why I allowed for the theoretical possibility. As a matter of fact, that's a good analogy for what I was thinking. Some clever, educated person who thinks too much probably would concieve of an unaccessable "overgod" who actually embodies perfection a'la YHVH. It's something highly likely to be discussed in intellectual circles, in fact. However, as far as I'm aware, even after thinking of that idea, the Greeks failed to abandon belief or worship in their "lower", more "flawed" gods as a result. They didn't even redifine divinity for them. So while I see your point, it doesn't touch on why D&D characters should be using concepts and ideas based on a culture that has no existence or parallel to them. (Caveat: if such historical precedent has been set, all bets go out the window, but it would require specific attention to the hows and whys of this movement, and I'm hard pressed to see it developing in a traditional D&D game. It would require something akin to the world being totally cut off from the outer planes for an extended period for these abstract ideas to take proper root.)

 

[Umbran]

I agree for the most part, but there is usually something in my campaigns that pretty much proves the existence of uber-powerful beings (gods).

Well, part of that would depend on what you call "proof". Most things short of personally showing up and whipping lots of that power around probably fall into what I'd call "circumstantial" or "anecdotal" evidence.

And having the gods actually show up and toss power around on a regular basis is a good way to leave your planet a smoking slagheap. In order to prove themselves, they've got to obviously exceed the power levels a mortal can reach. That means stuff a 20th level Wizard cannot match. And if one shows up, that means opposing ones have to counter, and it all becomes one big nasty free-for-all...

 

[Kanegrundar]

Well, part of that would depend on what you call "proof". Most things short of personally showing up and whipping lots of that power around probably fall into what I'd call "circumstantial" or "anecdotal" evidence.

And having the gods actually show up and toss power around on a regular basis is a good way to leave your planet a smoking slagheap. In order to prove themselves, they've got to obviously exceed the power levels a mortal can reach. That means stuff a 20th level Wizard cannot match. And if one shows up, that means opposing ones have to counter, and it all becomes one big nasty free-for-all...

It all depends on how you want to play it out. IMC the gods draw their power from worship, so it's a constant struggle for souls. If the gods end up destroying the world, they lose their power base and cease to be. (Although the idea of wiping out the world and using the last bit of their power to create life in the hopes that the new beings will worship them is interesting, but not the way I want the campaign to go.) The gods vie for souls left and right in order to get a leg up. The pantheon is set up in such a way that each god feel's like there can only be one, and the last one standing wins. Each god, even those allied to the causes of good, are always trying to one up the other in order to ensure their place as the last. It makes for some interesting conflicts. The gods appear, give quests (only at higher levels where the heroes have proven themselves) and hope that in the event of quest's completion the power shifts more in their favor. The PC's however, don't realize this power struggle and simply think that good gods are fighting only for good and so forth. So, you see, just because gods appear doesn't automatically lead to the world turning into slag.

Kane