Atonement without repentance?
- Thread starter Egres
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The Eternal GM
First Post
The simple answer to the complex religious/moral question... Yes, he went to far and deserves reprimanding for it.
But... No need to have him fall completely, just have his god deprive him of such magic for a time. His cause IS just, but his means are beyond what H'nos would normally approve of. There are other ways, and he chose the fast, easy, and ultimately selfish manner to deal with the problem.
I've seen this before, as I'm sure have many DM's. Paladins and Clerics who's players feel that for the sake of the game (balance issues, etc.) they should be quickly allowed to sin, get a slapped wrist and get on with things. If you're playing an 'all action/no plot game' then fair enough. but if (as it sounds) you're going for some bigger stories, plots and role-play, then the players should understand that the gods can deny them divine powers.
But... No need to have him fall completely, just have his god deprive him of such magic for a time. His cause IS just, but his means are beyond what H'nos would normally approve of. There are other ways, and he chose the fast, easy, and ultimately selfish manner to deal with the problem.
I've seen this before, as I'm sure have many DM's. Paladins and Clerics who's players feel that for the sake of the game (balance issues, etc.) they should be quickly allowed to sin, get a slapped wrist and get on with things. If you're playing an 'all action/no plot game' then fair enough. but if (as it sounds) you're going for some bigger stories, plots and role-play, then the players should understand that the gods can deny them divine powers.
QuaziquestGM
First Post
You can go middle of the road on this one.
The god lets him "partially" repent and puts him on probation until he "Learns the true meaning of repentants". Do not elaborate.
After he prays for his spells, take the sheet, and convert all of the Damage causing spells to "Create Food and water".
Keep this up for a few days of game time, or until he starts stabilizing enemy fallen, taking prisoners, and "spreading the good word".
If the player/pc complains a bit...ok...that is part of the process of coming to repentance.
If the player/pc b(eriks grandma)/uses god's name in vain/says this is stupid/otherwise insults intelligence of the god or gm.....kA BAM! Lighting strikes overhead and his robes turn grey. Then you can give him an offer from another god.
Or, you can go old testament on him, give him full powers back, and then have him swallowed by a "whale" that is immune to his powers that delivers him to mission of God's choosing. maybe a celestial roc or a sandstorm.
The god lets him "partially" repent and puts him on probation until he "Learns the true meaning of repentants". Do not elaborate.
After he prays for his spells, take the sheet, and convert all of the Damage causing spells to "Create Food and water".
Keep this up for a few days of game time, or until he starts stabilizing enemy fallen, taking prisoners, and "spreading the good word".
If the player/pc complains a bit...ok...that is part of the process of coming to repentance.
If the player/pc b(eriks grandma)/uses god's name in vain/says this is stupid/otherwise insults intelligence of the god or gm.....kA BAM! Lighting strikes overhead and his robes turn grey. Then you can give him an offer from another god.
Or, you can go old testament on him, give him full powers back, and then have him swallowed by a "whale" that is immune to his powers that delivers him to mission of God's choosing. maybe a celestial roc or a sandstorm.
Bladesong
Explorer
Egres said:That's not what I have found.
intransitive verb
1: to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life
2 a: to feel regret or contrition b: to change one's mind
transitive verb
1: to cause to feel regret or contrition
2: to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
Yours is only one of the meanings: nowhere I have found it's more accurate than mine.
Your choice of course...personally I find using a secular source for a religious idea (albeit of the fantasy variety) somewhat amusing...
Thanael
Explorer
Aside form being clearly an evil act, I would also peg it as distinctly un-chivalrous, un-just and dishonorable. In short very much in conflict with Heironeous portfolio of Chivalry, Justice, Honor, War, Daring, Valor.
Your cleric seems to be slipping into LN and LE territory. Let him be tempted by Hextor i say. But generally I wouldn´t take away any of his spells. I mean he could technically cast spells without worshipping a god at all. So while his alignment slips he unknowingly casts spells from his faith in concepts alone. Hextor will watch this one closely and try to win him over. Heironeous will watch him closely too and perhaps by somehow punishing him push him even more away...
For a cleric of Heironeous casting Destruction or any Necromancy/Death spell is a treading on very thin ice and should definately be reserved for clearly evil and abominous opponents. Check out the spells focus component: A special holy (or unholy) symbol of silver marked with verses of anathema (cost 500 gp).
Verses of anathema? Let the player make up some of those verses and then see how much the anathema part applies to the contestant killed.
Which domains has he chosen btw.?
PS: check out the 2E accessory Bastion of Faith for many details on Heironeous and Hextor´s religions including a nice tale of corruption in a church of Heironeous.
Your cleric seems to be slipping into LN and LE territory. Let him be tempted by Hextor i say. But generally I wouldn´t take away any of his spells. I mean he could technically cast spells without worshipping a god at all. So while his alignment slips he unknowingly casts spells from his faith in concepts alone. Hextor will watch this one closely and try to win him over. Heironeous will watch him closely too and perhaps by somehow punishing him push him even more away...
For a cleric of Heironeous casting Destruction or any Necromancy/Death spell is a treading on very thin ice and should definately be reserved for clearly evil and abominous opponents. Check out the spells focus component: A special holy (or unholy) symbol of silver marked with verses of anathema (cost 500 gp).
Verses of anathema? Let the player make up some of those verses and then see how much the anathema part applies to the contestant killed.
Which domains has he chosen btw.?
PS: check out the 2E accessory Bastion of Faith for many details on Heironeous and Hextor´s religions including a nice tale of corruption in a church of Heironeous.
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roguerouge
First Post
Clearly, he needs a probation officer: a celestial who checks in on the PC, asks for updates on his actions, shakes his head sadly, etc.
WayneLigon said:
Yeah - attacking a person who isn't responsible for what you want to prevent doesn't fit into the "good" axis of lawful good. Technically following the rules of the race, but without conscience, is more like lawful evil.
What if you and the player agree to move his alignment from good to neutral? Maybe the church assigns him a quest to atone, to prove both his worth, and his dedication to the ideals of the faith.
On the other hand, I think it matters who he cast the spell against. For example, was this an opportunity to eliminate an enemy to the church/the church's ideals in accordance with the anything goes rules of the race? That, I think, is fair game, and kudos to the cleric for addressing two birds with one stone (the need to win the race, and taking out an enemy of the church). Or was it just Joe NPC who was wiped out to serve the cleric's agenda of peace? In the end, the definition of "innocent" matters, in the eyes of the greater good, necessary evils, the law, etc.
Also, how does preventing this war serve hieroneous? War is in his portfolio. Is it a just war? If it is, they shouldn't be trying to prevent it. If it's even reasonable for the country to be trying to expand or defend itself for the benefit of it's people, it's arguably an ok war to let happen - even if the church decided not to take sides.
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Squire James
Explorer
Take away his domain spells and powers... that should leave him with enough power to continue adventuring while still demonstrating that his chosen deity is not happy with him. It was a willful act, so an Atonement spell alone will not solve the problem... require a quest of him that clearly falls within Heironeous' influence (i.e. be sure enough good deeds are clearly required to push his alignment back northwest). At some time during that quest, Hextor offers the cleric choice of HIS domains.
If he completes the quest, Heironeous takes him back. If he accepts Hextor, well, now he's a Lawful Neutral cleric of Hextor (his holy symbols changed when he wasn't looking). If neither happens, he remains a blah with no Domains until a better course suggests itself.
If he completes the quest, Heironeous takes him back. If he accepts Hextor, well, now he's a Lawful Neutral cleric of Hextor (his holy symbols changed when he wasn't looking). If neither happens, he remains a blah with no Domains until a better course suggests itself.
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