Atonement without repentance?

[Egres]

For your reference though, from Dictionary.com:

Repeating a sin is not turning away from it or doing penitence for it.

Unless you start to see it as a non-sin, like my player.

You are a stubborn one...take it as you wish, but acknowledge that your player's definition is just as valid.

I completely agree on that.

But this is not what you said before:

However, your player's definition of repentance is more accurate than yours strictly speaking since it means "passionately regret your action and sin no more"

Yours is only one of the meanings: nowhere I have found it's more accurate than mine.

That's why I replied: I'm not challenging you, but I didn't agree on your previous statement.

There are a lot of great ideas here...just don't let your battle become with the player and try to come to an agreement as far as the character goes.

That's what I'm trying to do.

He's searching for a god who lets the ends justify the means, and in the meantime Heironeus offered him a place as a Gray Guard.

Exactly why won't the cleric bring him back?

Because he had to kill them, and he doesn't want to repair what he didn't want to do.

A neutral god sounds like an ideal fit for this guy.

Any suggestion?

I'd agree with the earlier post that simply crossed off all damaging spells and replaced them with something else.

Actually all of his offensive spells are replaced by cure spells of the same level.

 

[Herobizkit]

You can go middle of the road on this one.

The god lets him "partially" repent and puts him on probation until he "Learns the true meaning of repentants". Do not elaborate.

After he prays for his spells, take the sheet, and convert all of the Damage causing spells to "Create Food and water".

Keep this up for a few days of game time, or until he starts stabilizing enemy fallen, taking prisoners, and "spreading the good word".

If the player/pc complains a bit...ok...that is part of the process of coming to repentance.

If the player/pc b(eriks grandma)/uses god's name in vain/says this is stupid/otherwise insults intelligence of the god or gm.....kA BAM! Lighting strikes overhead and his robes turn grey. Then you can give him an offer from another god.

Or, you can go old testament on him, give him full powers back, and then have him swallowed by a "whale" that is immune to his powers that delivers him to mission of God's choosing. maybe a celestial roc or a sandstorm.

*APPLAUSE* A DM that actually understands Clerics as a class... BRAVO!

 

[Herobizkit]

He's searching for a god who lets the ends justify the means, and in the meantime Heironeus offered him a place as a Gray Guard.... Any suggestion?

Wee Jas.

From Wikipedia:
In the World of Greyhawk campaign setting and the default pantheon of deities for the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, Wee Jas is the Suel goddess of Magic, Death, Vanity, and Law.

I think it's pretty vain of the PC to use Death magic to win a race and expect no ramifications. Wee Jas seems a perfect fit for this PC.

 

[Andor]

I think you should change the emphasis from repentance for the act to redemption from the evil he commited. At very least he should have to Raise the guy he killed at his own expense.

If you want a more long term commitment as proof of redemption, have the guy be unraisable so the cleric has to make good on the life he ended. IE: He becomes responsible for the wife and kids of the NPC he has killed. Let him try to explain to a 9 year old girl why he had to kill her daddy, but it's okay because the murderer is there to care for her now.

Lot's of rping opportunities here.

 

[Rvdvelden]

Egres, have you ever considered that you as a DM maybe should've stepped in way earlier to prevent this?

From the SRD:

"A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance [...] Clerics meditate or pray for their spells."

Furthermore:

" Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions."

While technically not an Evil spell, you could've chosen not to grant the spell to the cleric, or have it fail at the moment the intent of the use of the spell was clear. Gods aren't fools, they know what's going to be done in their name. In my view, they don't only punish afterwards, they proactively try to stop anything that is done in their name that causes harm to them.

Furthermore, between the casting of the spell and unleashing it, did you ask the player out-of-game if he fully understood all consequences and potential repercussions? Was the player willing to accept any consequenses of his choice? If so, punish him by all means. If not, maybe you two should work something out.

 

[Egres]

While technically not an Evil spell, you could've chosen not to grant the spell to the cleric, or have it fail at the moment the intent of the use of the spell was clear. Gods aren't fools, they know what's going to be done in their name. In my view, they don't only punish afterwards, they proactively try to stop anything that is done in their name that causes harm to them.

That would kill the character's free will, IMHO.

Let me make my own mistakes, and le me learn from them.

Otherwise the gods become some kind of divine baby-sitters.

 

[doghead]

general - atonment

If you think that the deity would be less than happy with the PC's actions, then I think the idea of stripping the character of his domain spells and powers is a good one. Not granting other spells that could be misused could also be an interesting option. I would also have the deity have a little word to the PC's, indicating the problem. Then the ball is in the PC's court.

Having another deity hovering in the wings ready to take on the cleric is also an interesting idea. If it was my game, and the PC did defect, then I would also consider some from of response by his former deity. Not exactly sure what at this point.

doghead
aka thotd

edit: Humm, seems much of this has been covered on page 2.

 

[pallandrome]

I'd make the atonement not work until the little git of a cleric realizes that, hey, MEYBE he should have killed the frikkin HORSE.

My good gods tend not to accept thoughtless murder, just cause the cleric couldnt come up with a better plan.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I'd make the atonement not work until the little git of a cleric realizes that, hey, MEYBE he should have killed the frikkin HORSE.

My good gods tend not to accept thoughtless murder, just cause the cleric couldnt come up with a better plan.

In fairness, OP has stated that there was no horse to kill.

Still, I think OP has a plan now from what I can tell, which I agree with. Given the statement the player no longer sees random destruction as a sin, perhaps an alignment change to N at least is in store.

I'd offer a God, OP, but Greyhawk is not my strong suit. From Core, I'd agree with Wee Jas as stated earlier (assumming the player doesn't want an evil god), as St. Cuthbert wouldn't endorse this either. But like I said, I'm not comfortable enough with Greyhawk to offer anything. If this were the Realms, I'd be happy to help.

 

[Egres]

If this were the Realms, I'd be happy to help.

My campaign is open to some of the FR pantheon: feel free to suggest.