Atonement without repentance?

[Arkhandus]

Unless you start to see it as a non-sin, like my player.

However, Heironeous sees it differently from the player. Heironeous wins that argument by default, since the deity's dogma is what the PC cleric has to adhere to or else suffer the consequences. Which means Heironeous strips him of his cleric class features.

To Heironeous, acting counter to his code IS a sin. And anyway, murder without just cause is sinful by any definition of Good. It certainly does not show any respect for life, which is a key principle of Good alignment. Nor is it the least bit honorable or obedient to the authority of Heironeous. Also, from the PHB's definition of evil:

Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.

"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

The PC would not sacrifice gold or the like to resurrect the innocent he killed. He was unwilling to sacrifice a bit of time or effort to avoid fighting the person (or at least avoid killing them, as opposed to just subduing them), because he wanted to complete his personal mission first and cared not for anyone who crossed his path along the way. It was convenient for him to destroy the interloper, because it allowed him to continue his own mission without interruption or danger to himself. He would willingly repeat it later for the sake of convenience as well. This is Evil with a capital E.

What the PC did was in violation of Heironeous' code. The big H is Lawful Good, which means that his code is not just something he'd kinda sorta appreciate his clerics adhering to. He expects his clerics to behave in a Just, Righteous, Honorable, and Chivalrous manner. His dogma says that might does not make right and the ends do not justify the means.

If the PC cleric is so willing to murder random people that might be a threat, just because it might potentially serve the greater good if his guess about those random people was right, then he is not behaving in accordance with Lawful Good alignment or Heironeous' dogma. He is completely ignoring the chief tenets of Heironeous' faith, which are Justice and Righteousness. There is no justice in killing people who might get in the way, and nothing righteous about it. Heironeous is not the one who forgives evil deeds, that's Pelor who's all full of compassion, and even Pelor preaches the destruction of unrepentant evildoers.

Heironeous is all about punishing evil and protecting the innocent; the PC committed an evil act against someone who was quite possibly innocent and not all that likely to have been evil. After all, the PCs were taking part in the competition and they're supposed to be good guys, right? Couldn't other good guys be competing as well for noble purposes? There's no way he could just assume anyone he came across to be an evil foe, and presumptions are not what Justice is made of.

Heironeous gave the PC cleric the powers necessary to determine if slaying that random person would be Just or not (Detect Good, Zone of Truth, Detect Lies, etc. Even Speak With Dead for post-mortem questioning, though 'kill it first and ask the corpse questions later' is most definitely not a Good policy). Heironeous gave him access to spells like Sanctuary and Word of Recall so he would not have to fight pointless battles.

Heironeous gave him destructive spells with the understanding that they would be used to destroy evil, just as Heironeous strives to do, not to kill random people just because they get in the way of his clerics' missions. Heironeous is not the deity of infinite mercy and forgiveness, he is the deity of righteous battle, courage, justice, and strictly honorable behavior.

 

[Vaslov]

...He says that he feels remorse for his opponent's death, but he doesn't repent, cause he's "ready to do it again in the future if a greater good needs a sacrifice"...

He thinks that, in order to repent, you truly say to yourself that you'll never do it again. But he will act in the same way again if a greater good demands so.

I, on the other way, think that repenting means that you feel remorse for what you have done, and sincerely hope you'll never find yourself once again in such a horrible situation.

I think the posters before this have made fine arguments on both sides of the issue. As I see this as a very exciting development for the campaign I'll try to throw out what may be a third alternative.

I assume others were spectators of this race and saw the event. If not directly in a coliseum perhaps via scrying the mounts or something of the like. They ask the same questions and bring up the same points as this board. Word spreads and the general populace is unsure of the right answer. Clerics of Heironeous see or hear of it as well and are of different minds on the matter as well as found through their own sermons and actions. Over time various divinations and other questions to the powers that be bring back mixed or unclear answers. Even Heironeous’s celestial choir is split with some calling it a heroic action as the cleric put his soul in mortal danger for the greater good while others see it as a travesty against all that is good. Heironeous’s Good and Lawful aspects come into some degree of conflict with each other. Could this lead to a schism within the church? Or open bloodshed? I am not sure how closely tied the church of Herioneous would be to the kingdom but perhaps somehow the disagreement enters the political arena with the each kingdom taking opposite views on the matter.

And what does the big H have to say on the matter? He is strangely silent on the matter for the moment other than the player can still cast spells. Perhaps he is hoping the player see the error in his ways and truly repents as defined by you. Or he does believe it was for the greater good. Perhaps he is letting the hero define what Heironeous stands for as his proxy on the material plane as even he is split between his Lawful and Good side. Could this lead to Heironeous splitting into two lesser gods or find some sort of answer to the question? What other gods might find this to their advantage?

While you could just rule 0 and provide the player a clear answer from Heironeous, the lack of a clear answer has so much potential. Let the player and campaign live with the impacts of the action and see where the story takes you.

Good gaming to you!

 

[Egres]

I think the posters before this have made fine arguments on both sides of the issue. As I see this as a very exciting development for the campaign I'll try to throw out what may be a third alternative.

I assume others were spectators of this race and saw the event. If not directly in a coliseum perhaps via scrying the mounts or something of the like. They ask the same questions and bring up the same points as this board. Word spreads and the general populace is unsure of the right answer. Clerics of Heironeous see or hear of it as well and are of different minds on the matter as well as found through their own sermons and actions. Over time various divinations and other questions to the powers that be bring back mixed or unclear answers. Even Heironeous’s celestial choir is split with some calling it a heroic action as the cleric put his soul in mortal danger for the greater good while others see it as a travesty against all that is good. Heironeous’s Good and Lawful aspects come into some degree of conflict with each other. Could this lead to a schism within the church? Or open bloodshed? I am not sure how closely tied the church of Herioneous would be to the kingdom but perhaps somehow the disagreement enters the political arena with the each kingdom taking opposite views on the matter.

And what does the big H have to say on the matter? He is strangely silent on the matter for the moment other than the player can still cast spells. Perhaps he is hoping the player see the error in his ways and truly repents as defined by you. Or he does believe it was for the greater good. Perhaps he is letting the hero define what Heironeous stands for as his proxy on the material plane as even he is split between his Lawful and Good side. Could this lead to Heironeous splitting into two lesser gods or find some sort of answer to the question? What other gods might find this to their advantage?

While you could just rule 0 and provide the player a clear answer from Heironeous, the lack of a clear answer has so much potential. Let the player and campaign live with the impacts of the action and see where the story takes you.

Good gaming to you!

Interesting.

I'm gonna spend some time to work it upon.

 

[Squire James]

Mechanically, I'll reiterate the remedy I specified before... remove access to both domains and their domain powers. Or, if Heironeous wants to make a lesser point, revoke whichever of his domains is more aggressive. It's a clear sign of deific displeasure, but it is not so debilitating that the character is unplayable.

You might also want to note that True Neutral clerics can't worship Heironeous, and that he's one evil act away from joining that alignment - he now has two "strikes" according to your account of his previous actions, and a third "strike" IMO should trigger an alignment change! He'll need to either shape up, act more Lawful to get back within one step (of whom, I might ask at that point), or start cozying up to a Neutral deity somewhere!

 

[Bladesong]

"However, your player's definition of repentance is more accurate than yours strictly speaking since it means "passionately regret your action and sin no more"

Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I said as the correct definition. You would be hard pressed to study any religion that teaches repentance that does not include the need to turn back to God and think that "I'm sorry" is enough. It is not however, important to what needs to be done in your game as I stated before.

So, have you had another session and have you and your player come to agreement? I for on would like to know how it turned out...

 

[Egres]

"However, your player's definition of repentance is more accurate than yours strictly speaking since it means "passionately regret your action and sin no more"

Don't get me wrong, I stand by what I said as the correct definition. You would be hard pressed to study any religion that teaches repentance that does not include the need to turn back to God and think that "I'm sorry" is enough.

So we can agree to disagree.

So, have you had another session and have you and your player come to agreement? I for on would like to know how it turned out...

The next session will be this wednesday night.

We'll see...

 

[Harmon]

Would you suggest a deity that could accept such a behaviour?

No.

The only reason being is that if I did it would start a whole new discussion- thoughts on what gods would allow such, and all or rather most of it would be based around personal interpretation for the deity's dogma.

As I said or implied, an avatar showing up and talking to the cleric, finding out the exacts- which he (the avatar) already knows (but sometimes people need to admit their faults to see them) then explain to the cleric what could, should or will happen to him for doing such a thing in the first place.

It gives the PC some Role Playing and helps the Player and GM get on the same page with what might be excepted or expected of a Heironian in the future.

 

[Thanael]

In the Oeridian pantheon Heironeous half-brother Hextor (LE) and Erythnul (CE), who some say is Hextor's father, come to mind.

 

[Aaron]

Why don't you give him a Phylactery of Faithfulness?

 

[hamishspence]

Repentance mechanics in D&D: Fiendish Codex 2

It has details on what constitutes repentance and atonement. In addition, for minor acts (the one mentioned was not minor) you do not need the spell, merely the quest, restitution, tithe. For major ones, you need to have the atonement spell cast as well.

Or exalted deeds, if you like that book, has some info, though not game mechanics.