Attack with shrink items/weapon

[notjer]

So.... I know that using shrink item on a boulder or anything else stupidly big and heavy can deal significant damage when dropped with mage hand on an enemy, however. I was thinking of some sort of combo when looking at some interesting exotic weapons with inspiration from the anime Bleach. Here we have this guy who can extend his sword with the speed of light. Quite badass.

What if this principle was used in d&d 3.5 with the spell shrink item?

Some combos could be with very very large arrows you shrink, shoot and "detonate" either before or after hitting the opponent. Same principles goes for other ranged weapons.

Other approaches could be with a flail or whipe-like weapon with evil spikes, alchemist fire, and poison, hit the square on or above the opponent and release the spell. Logistic problems might occur with transportation of such weapons of course

I am inclined to believe other people already wrote about this, but I have not found anything yet. Maybe my google fu is weak.

Is it possible to do it with the rules in the game and do you have some interesting ideas of how to "optimize" or "abuse" this idea?

 

[Greenfield]

I'm going to play "Rules-Ogre DM" for a moment with your post. Please don't take it personally.

First, there are no rules for assigning damage done by falling object, at least not that I'm aware of. So dropping something heavy on an opponent is a gray area, at best.

Second, you can't even make an attack roll with Mage Hand to target the opponent. You'll miss, or glance off harmlessly, pretty much by definition.

Third, you can't use Mage Hand on magic items. The spell specifically precludes it. You can't even begin to pick them up.

And that was just addressing the first sentence of your post.

As a general thing, trying to reproduce fictional characters in an RPG (any RPG) is always problematic. The fictional character always survives, and with anime, they usually survive in style. Maybe that's what draws us to them (no pun intended). Their RPG counterparts don't come with a script writer, so style and success are never guaranteed.

Functionally, a blade that extends at the speed of light is pretty much the same as any ranged spell or other attack. The rest is just "special effect". So work with your non-rules-ogre DM on that.

The idea of using Shrink Item on ballista bolts or something similar to turn them into arrows isn't new. Have you looked at the damage a Ballista actually does? Not that impressive, over all.

Furthermore (back in rules-ogre mode), issuing the command word to unshrink the item while it's in flight either calls for two people, or you'd need some way to fire off an attack and issue the command word (same as activating a magic item) all in the same round.

To unshrink it after it's hit is a different problem. The rules don't say what happens if there's no room for an item to expand back to full size when that spell ends or is terminated. The closest thing in there is the Enlarge Person spell, and it specifically says that if there isn't room to grow, you don't.

You could fire arrows through a Dispelling Screen spell, I suppose, but now you're using several spells in order to do damage that's less than other spells of similar levels. Just looking at magical bang for the buck, it's not really a repaying proposition.

Now the Magic Item Compendium does have a weapon property that can allow a reach weapon, such as a spear, to change size/reach as a swift action, but that doesn't include any rules for expanding it into/through someone. I'd presume that it does normal damage.

As for the "flail like weapon" with alchemical mixtures in it: Look at Cleric's Bullets, and similar items. There are arrows and other ammunition made to hold things like Holy Water and/or Alchemical Fire, and break upon impact.

On Shrink Item, talk to your DM first and find out what his ruling is for ending that spell in a place where the item doesn't have room to expand fully. Does it expand anyway, possibly breaking the constraining material? Does it remain shrunken until it can expand?

(Note that the latter form gives you a way to effectively make the spell duration indefinite. Just keep the tiny form in a jar or other container until needed. We use metal pipes with screw caps in our game.)

So yes, these ideas have been discussed many times. They play on rules that aren't there, or else go directly against the rules.

 

[Dozen]

First, there are no rules for assigning damage done by falling object, at least not that I'm aware of. So dropping something heavy on an opponent is a gray area, at best.

There is. It's on page 303 of the DMG. It's so forgiving I can hardly hold back a facepalm upon reading it though. A heavier brick would need to fall 60 feet first to deal damage at all-.- They even thought somebody might feel falling objects deal too much damage and wrote a sidebar with a variant rule that makes the first die nonlethal.

 

[Greenfield]

I'll have to take a look at that.

Most systems have "falling damage" but not collision damage. That is, hitting the ground at 60 ft. per second (360 ft movement in D&D) is covered, but running into a wall at the same speed isn't.

I recall various attempts to do things like place a Portable Hole on a barn door, then haul said barn door up into the sky so you could empty the hole onto an enemy.

From what you say, you'd need to be very high up to do any real damage, and the range increment for an improvised hurled weapon is such that hitting anything from that height is all but impossible.

Back to the OP: There are always problems with absolute rules like Mage Hand not being able to attack. We've seen people here say things like, "It's not attacking, it's just pouring acid on the person." They seem to equate, "The target is so easy that I wouldn't bother calling for an attack roll" with "not an attack".

You want to use the cantrip to dump poison in someone's drink, go for it. You want to dump in on their head, forget about it. You can't. It's one of those hard rules that just says "no".

There are similar "unstoppable attacks" that people try to come up with. Throwing a Wall of Force so the diving dragon hits it edgewise is a classic. People think that since it's a Force effect, it's like a light sabre and will slice and dice the dragon. As far as I know, however, there's nothing in the rules that says how thick the Wall of Force actually is.

And, as noted, there aren't any actual collision rules, only falling rules. Running into a wall while flying is a situation they never covered, or even hinted at.

Note: In the real world, a three foot fall will kill an elephant. In D&D? Not a bruise or a hair out of place.

It's just the way things work when you need to keep your rules playable.

 

[jefgorbach]

I'll have to take a look at that.

Most systems have "falling damage" but not collision damage. That is, hitting the ground at 60 ft. per second (360 ft movement in D&D) is covered, but running into a wall at the same speed isn't.

RAI/houserule: The falling rules apply regardless of which direction the object falls, since "falling" sideways into a wall/etc at 60ft per second is essentially the same as falling downward into the ground at 60ft per second, with both objects incurring the same amount of damage. Generally the ground does not care how much damage it incurs, it is occasionally useful to know for those situations when the falling object might actually pass thru impact site(s), applying damage per layer to determine eventual total impact depth.

 

[Dozen]

There are similar "unstoppable attacks" that people try to come up with. Throwing a Wall of Force so the diving dragon hits it edgewise is a classic. People think that since it's a Force effect, it's like a light sabre and will slice and dice the dragon. As far as I know, however, there's nothing in the rules that says how thick the Wall of Force actually is.

Again, there is, in Reading Spell Descriptions (Part Five) of the WotC's 3.5 archive. Whenever not stated otherwise, a Wall effect always counts as two-dimensional with negligible thickness.

 

[Ashtagon]

Since we have a creature's speed in feet/round, we can calculate its velocity in m/s.
Under local Earth gravity, for any given impact velocity, we can calculate the fall distance required to accelerate to that speed, and hence the overall distance fallen.
From this, we can create a chart giving fall distance equivalences for any given collision speed.

Fall distances are rounded to the nearest 10-foot equivalent.

Speed 0-70 ft: 0 ft
Speed 80-130 ft: 10 ft
Speed 140-170 ft: 20 ft
Speed 180-200 ft: 30 ft
Speed 210-220 ft: 40 ft
Speed 230-250 ft: 50 ft
Speed 260-270 ft: 60 ft
Speed 280-290 ft: 70 ft
Speed 300-310 ft: 80 ft
Speed 320-330 ft: 90 ft
Speed 340 ft: 100 ft

Unless they are flying blind, they should automatically be able to decelerate to half speed before impact, and a save should be allowed to avoid damage entirely if they can hover.


[maths]
speed (m/s) = move x 0.3048 / 6
Equivalent fall time (s) = speed / 9.8055
Equivalent fall distance (m) = time x speed
Equivalent fall distance (ft) = m x 0.3048
[/maths]

 

[James the Newbie]

I hate to also be mean, but with your enlarged arrows there is one issue. The damage comes from the bow. If you look at enlarge person, the arrows do large bow damage, even though when they leave the bow they become medium, this is because, in D&D the arrows damage is based off the bow. Hate to ruin your fun, but that's what the enlarge person rules say about arrows after they leave the bow.

One thing that does seem like fun, is a cube with 5 faces, and the 6th face is open, mage hand it over your opponent and trap them, can even leave holes in it (either a cage or a box with a hole in it) to attack them through. You can also turn fire into thin paper, there is no reason (with some kind of DC check) this wouldn't work on an explosion, tag that paper to a kunai, and rip off naruto, or simply and arrow. Mix in some of that paper with soup, let them eat it, and then release the masses of acid or fire into their stomach.

Another interesting thing, which leads to arguments with anime object, is can you shrink a section of the ground (i'd rule no) and use it as a pit trap spell. Some DM's (Not me or the people I know) may decide this is fun and allow it. While with earth (that hasnt been dug up) my instincts say no, creating masses of water in the same cloth form, seems reasonable, and we all know how destructive water is, possible more useful against a wave, up to the DM if it retains its consistancy. But just how minute can you specify, what if you want to use it on the oxygen in a contained room, that would suffocate someone. And while an explosion is hard to catch in time, an explosive gas released around someone with a flaming sword, or a torch, or many fire creatures, not so much.

You can also mix it with the entangle spell, to allow you to use it in awkward area's, making the low level spell yet more irritating. Smoke bombs is another option, and it cleans your own air if you have just been assaulted, poison gas too. A recently killed creature with a stench ability is a bit of a dark way to go, it could replace certain wall spells, when you look at ice and stone, can also make adamant and what not if you have the gold. An amusing way to steal a grand statue, and back to the shrink part of the ground idea, break into a building pretty much effortlessly, and silently.

Lay caltrops down (all linked by string?), or a carefully made turf with sharper more deadly knives attached to it jutting up, making charges against your camp nigh on impossible. Very cheaply drop a barrage of broken glass on someone (Might follow the volly rules).

A lot of these idea's become good by level 10, however are still usable at level 5. I have no doubt that this list of stuff you can do, has lots of holes in them, as it just came off the top of my head, but I am sure some of it is viable. Please feel free to criticize any or all of this, I will take no offense ^_^

 

[Greenfield]

Thanks for the correction: Wall of Force is zero thickness.

I'm curious what your "cube with 5 sides" is made of, that it's big enough and strong enough to trap an opponent, yet light enough for Mage Hand to lift. Just curious.

And that's a good call on missile damage being determined by the size of the bow, not the size of the arrow.

As for Shrink Item being used to create a pit: The spell converts one item, not a given volume. Many people (including my own campaign) rule that a container can be shrunk and it will take the contents with it, but that's a house rule. In any case, the dirt isn't "one item", and it isn't in a container, so neither interpretation helps with your idea. And if you rule that "the earth" or "a mountain" is a single item, I'd still argue that you can't shrink part of an item. If it's too big for the spell to take in one bite, it isn't affected at all.

Spike strips work, though actual caltrops do pretty much the same thing and don't take up a spell slot. They cost a lot less too.

I'm not sure what happens to a campfire that's been itemized (2e reference), and then torn up. Most transformation spells include the disclaimer that parts separated from the whole revert immediately. It also violates the "single item" thing. As soon as you make it several items it no longer qualifies for the spell.

Though, come to think of it, "camp fire" is almost never a single piece of wood. So the "single item" restriction may legitimately be interpreted conceptually rather than mathematically. (In other words, if we tend to think of it as a single item, the spell works, no matter how many pieces actually go into that item.) This also keeps people from using the spell to pull single pieces out of a mechanism, since we tend to see the mechanism as a whole thing. I guess that's the difference between magic and technology: Magic works the way your gut says it should, while technology has to follow the laws of physics.

The "conceptually v mathematically" interpretation incidentally supports our house rule of shrinking the chest, and everything in it.

The big conundrum with using Shrink Item to prepare all of these nifty oddities is that the spell has a duration of one day per caster level. You'd need to dedicate a number of 3rd level spells per day to refreshing your micro-arsenal's micro state. Spells that could probably be put to other uses (such as killing things).

Unless, of course, you use the rule that says it can't expand unless there's room, and then store said micro-arsenal in tiny containers, ready to grab and use, empty or throw. (There was a comic book character, Henry Pym, in the Avengers, who seemed to do that sort of thing. He was a master of size changing technology. After his runs as Ant Man and Giant Man were done he was still known to keep immense technology in his pocket, in shrunken form. Put Batman's infamous utility belt to shame. )

While Shrink Item is a really neat and useful spell, when people try to use it to store damage dealing weapons/situations/materials, I find myself mentally comparing the results to other 3rd level spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt. When it comes to damage, the actual damage dealing spells of the same level tend to come out ahead.

 

[James the Newbie]

Always appreciate your fine comb look at idea's when it comes to RAW, and I would agree with pretty much all of it.

Maybe I described spike strips wrong, it would be a 5 foot piece of stone/grass whatever you want (one object) with high quality blades sticking upwards from it (probably more money than its worth) so shrink item should work on that. You could call the blades and the thing it is attached to separate, but I'd argue thats a bit nit picky, like arguing a shirt and its buttons are not the same thing for the purpose of the spell.

I have no idea what would be light enough and strong enough, mithril may work?

And while I agree fireball easily surpasses pretty much anything shrink item can do, the day long duration, means if you need to take care of a big bad evil guy, then you do have a certain amount of extra stuff prepared against him. (If pretty weak and not the best thing ever)

Do you think using the 3rd level spell to replace the wall spells would work well? Since I may (after running it by my new DM, new city, not sure what they are like yet, but people tell me he is freindly) try that.