Attacking past your ally with a reach weapon

[Hypersmurf]

An additional question to all this. Does the cover provided when using a reach weapon to attack an opponent on the other side of an ally negate AoOs?

Yup, in both directions.

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

That sure could reduce the effectiveness of the enlarged guisarme wielding trip monkey everyone is always talking about

 

[Hypersmurf]

That sure could reduce the effectiveness of the enlarged glaive wielding trip monkey everyone is always talking about

Not much. Once he trips the in-between guy, then he can trip the guy at the back who doesn't have cover any more

And you might be thinking guisarme - you can't trip with a glaive.

-Hyp.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Yup, it's the Hive Mind. Read the definition of flanking one more time, and then try and figure out how you can ever get a flanking bonus against one of a group of Formians

One can't be flanked unless they're all flanked. Meaning that every Formian in the group would have to be threatened, for you to get a flanking bonus to attack one of them. The only thing I'm unsure about is the positioning. Flanking also requires that you be on the opposite side of your foe, from the threatening ally...

Oi.

 

[Hypersmurf]

One can't be flanked unless they're all flanked.

Right.

Meaning that every Formian in the group would have to be threatened, for you to get a flanking bonus to attack one of them.

Threatening isn't enough

If you and I are standing on opposite sides of an orc, holding our swords, we are threatening the orc, but we are not flanking him.

If I make a melee attack on the orc - now we're flanking him. But once my attack's over, we're not flanking any more. Then you make a melee attack, and while that's going on, we're flanking again... until you finish.

Because that's how they define flanking - one person making a melee attack, and his ally threatening.

So any given Formian is not considered flanked unless every Formian is subject to a melee attack at the same time, by creatures with allies who can help them flank their targets.

But by the nature of turn-based initiative, we can't have several people making melee attacks at the same time. So at any given instant, only one Formian can be flanked... which means that by the nature of Hive Mind, you can never gain a flanking bonus against a Formian if there's more than one of them around.

Even if all the Formians are surrounded by eight of my men-at-arms, they aren't flanked except when one of those men-at-arms is making a melee attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Abraxas]

Your right guisarme not glaive (edited it so its right now)

IDHMBWM - does it actually say anywhere that the interveneing character has to be standing to provide cover? What if the intervening critter is tiny or diminutive - do they still provide cover? I just don't remember and can't get to my books now.

Anyways - the intervening guys may be allies - so unless the enlarged trip monkey wants to be front and center with nothing between him and the ravening hordes hes going to be less effective than everyone claims. But that is a different discussion

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Even if all the Formians are surrounded by eight of my men-at-arms, they aren't flanked except when one of those men-at-arms is making a melee attack.

Oh my. I hadn't realized this at all. And the same problem crops up with Axiomatic creatures, which uses the exact same language as the Formian's Hive Mind. Indeed, in a previous campaign my fighter/mage had an axiomatic hawk familiar (courtesy of Planar Familiar from the Wizards Spellbook feature.) I merely thought somebody would have to flank both my PC and his familiar at the same time. I didn't realize they'd both have to be attacked...at the same time.

Oi.

IDHMBWM - does it actually say anywhere that the interveneing character has to be standing to provide cover? What if the intervening critter is tiny or diminutive - do they still provide cover? I just don't remember and can't get to my books now.

Hyp already provided the relevent quotes. The creature doesn't have to be standing, and the creature's size doesn't matter. The square merely needs to be occupied by a creature.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Oh my. I hadn't realized this at all. And the same problem crops up with Axiomatic creatures, which uses the exact same language as the Formian's Hive Mind. Indeed, in a previous campaign my fighter/mage had an axiomatic hawk familiar (courtesy of Planar Familiar from the Wizards Spellbook feature.) I merely thought somebody would have to flank both my PC and his familiar at the same time. I didn't realize they'd both have to be attacked...at the same time.

They do just have to flank both PC and familiar at the same time. But flanking requires a melee attack, by definition.

Doubtless the authors of the Hive Mind ability forgot that, and believed that a creature is "flanked" simply by being threatened from two sides... but that's not how flanking is defined.

Oi.Hyp already provided the relevent quotes. The creature doesn't have to be standing, and the creature's size doesn't matter. The square merely needs to be occupied by a creature.

In 3E, with variable amounts of cover, this actually made more sense. Cover was dependent on how much of a target you actually provided... so a prone creature might be quarter-cover or less, and it required half-cover to block AoOs.

I think the 3.5 rules have been over-simplified in this respect.

-Hyp.