Attempt at more interesting summoning...

[mroberon1972]

Attempt at more interesting summoning...

Here are the charts:

[COLOR=silver]

This one limits the power level of the creature based on the level
of the summoning spell cast:

[B]	Summoning	
Spell Level	Monster CR[/B]
1		1/2
2		1
3		2
4		4
5		6
6		8
7		10
8		12
9		14
10*		16
11*		18
12*		20

* Epic relative level	



This one tells the highest CR monster that the character can
control based on the spell caster level:

[B]	Controlling **	
Caster Level	Monster CR[/B]
1		1/2
2		1
3		2
5		3
6		4
8		5
9		6
11		7
12		8
14		9
15		10
17		11
18		12
20		13
21		14
23		15
24		16
26		17
27		18
29		19
30		20

** Summon something you can't control, and you get to find out 
how much your 'Special Friend' really likes you...		



This chart shows how the character can summon multiple small
monsters with a higer level summoning spell.  For example: A
5th level wizard with a 3rd level Summons spell can call a CR 2
monster (and can control up to a CR 3, but that does not matter)
He could use the chart below to decide to summon up to 4
CR 1/2 monsters.


[B]	---------------  Number of Monsters  ----------------					
Total	Two	Three	Four	Five-	Seven-	Ten-
CR				Six	Nine	Twelve[/B]
1	1/2	1/3	1/4	1/6	1/8	1/8
2	1	1/2	1/2	1/3	1/4	1/6
3	1 1/2	1	3/4	1/2	1/3	1/4
4	2	1 1/2	1	3/4	1/2	1/3
5	3	2	1 1/2	1	3/4	1/2
6	4	3	2	1 1/2	1	2/3
7	5	4	3	2	1 1/2	3/4
8	6	5	4	3	2	1
9	7	6	5	4	3	2
10	8	7	6	5	4	3
11	9	8	7	6	5	4
12	10	9	8	7	6	5
13	11	10	9	8	7	6
14	12	11	10	9	8	7
15	13	12	11	10	9	8
16	14	13	12	11	10	9
17	15	14	13	12	11	10
18	16	15	14	13	12	11
19	17	16	15	14	13	12
20	18	17	16	15	14	13



Simply add the CR modifier below to the total CR of the monsters
summoned to find the final CR. (And how long they last...)

[B]        Duration	
Duration	Added
/ Level		CR[/B]
Round		+0
Minute		+1
10 Min		+2
Hour		+4
Day		+8


Add this to the total so far for he final CR of the summoning:

[B]Special Effects
Added
CR	Effect	[/B]		
+1	Range centered on Place			
+2	Range centered on Item or Person		
+3	Allow a single effect of the creature to continue past
	the summonings duration (healing, petrification, Etc...)  Does not
	stack...  Normally, only HP damage lasts after the summons ends.
						


- Each summoning spell is tied to a particular monster type (or
possibly, a particular monster...  Truename and all that rubbish)
- A spell allows the spell caster to summon monsters, but each
creature must also be researched in order to summon it with the
spell.
	- To learn the Truename of a creature in order to
	summon that particular creature, the research costs as follows:
	1 day, 100 gp, and 10 xp per point of challenge rating of the
	creature.
	- To learn the Truerace of a type of creature in order to
	summon that kind of creature, the research costs as follows:  1
	week, 1000 gp, and 100 xp per point of challenge rating of the
	race.
- If a Truename summoned creature dies, he cannot be
summoned by the caster for 1 day per CR of the monster.  There
is no such limitation on the Truerace version.
- A Truename creature can be given gifts to upgrade their
effectiveness with the +3 special effect:  Continue	Past
Summoning Duration.  By giving the creature this item, he can use
it in future encounters.
- If a Truename summoned creature dies when not summoned (In
real life...), he cannot be summoned by the caster again...
Ever...  All items are lost unless the creature can be found and
they survive.

[/COLOR]

Whew... I have a better formatted file in my spreadsheet, and entering this into the board was a PAIN for how lousy it looks!

For all this effort, I better get at least a couple of comments from you guys...

 

[mroberon1972]

OK... Is it my breath?

I've posted twice, and seem to be invisible. It either comes down to the fact that nobody loves me, or my ideas stink. Ya' know, I would even like it if someone told me that much...

Oh well...

Mr. Oberon,
Crying in my Dr. Pepper...

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, it's a little confusing (are all summonings Truename summonings? The text seems to indicate that you need to know a creature's True Name to summon it but the separate info on Truename summonings argues against that possibility).

Also the effective CR increase for an effect of the monster's summoning lasting longer than the spell--does that apply to the monster (really here like a calling) or the monsters targets (monster isn't really here).

It's complex too--there are a lot of factors that would go into deciding whether or not it is balanced.

Most monsters, for instance have abilities which could be more useful than their CR indicates--for instance Formian workers ability to work together to cast Cure Moderate Wounds (IIRC) or the Avoral Guardinal's ability to Lay on Hands and activate True Seeing at will. It's not entirely clear whether the "lingering effects" effective CR increase properly accounts for these abilities. (It would account for the CMW and the Lay on Hands but not for the Guardinal's True Seeing ability or a lantern archon's Aid at will ability (since Aid grants temporary hit points instead of healing).

 

[mroberon1972]

Effects duration...

Actually, the way we play it:

- No effect, either perm or instant, is allowed to continue past the moment the creature is gone. This can either be from the spell ending, or the creature 'dying' during its summons. This means that a character turned to stone by a creature with a gaze attack turns back at the end of the summons. This also means that healing spells cast by the summoned creature are reversed at the end of the spell duration. Even Insta-Kill attacks, such as a Bodak's gaze attacks are reversed at the end of the spell. That does not been dead during that time, it just means he came back at the end of the spell, without any further effects. The only thing not reversed at the end of the duration is HP damage. Why? Because a otherwise a character could summon a Celestial Cockatrice and turn about a dozen people to stone with a single spell of fourth level (as opposed to flesh to stone on 6th level). Keep in mind the does not stop characters from shattering the statues or cutting the neck of stoned/dead opponents, since the effect would be messy when the character 'came back'...

- The effect allowing a character to summon a creature and keep a single kind of effect from the creature involved costs 3 CR higher because of the ease of abuse... Keep in mind, It allows only ONE (1) kind of effect to continue past the duration. Healing, Sleep, Paralysis, Death... Each type should be considered one type for this rule...

As to how it works, Use the following process:

1. Pick the spell level the character wishes to use. (How about a 6th level spell...) This gives the spell a summoning power of CR 8.

2. The caster is 13th level, so can control up to a CR 8 creature. No problems here...

3. He wants the spell to last about one hour per level, so this reduces the total CR he can summon by four. He can now summon a CR 4 creature.

4. He decides to tie it to another person, so that the range limit centers on a poor defenseless elven prince for about 13 hours. This costs another two CR points. This leaves him with a CR of 2 for the summoning.

5. Now he has several Truenames and Racename recorded in his spellbooks. If he picks a Truename, he can only summon one of that creature, since of course, there is only one creature with that Truename. If he picks a Racename, he gets any number of creatures of that type. (This means a monster entry from the MM, such as Celestial Elf, Celestial Young Silver Dragon, or Fiendish Wolf. Note the increased cost of learning a Racename... In this case, he chooses a Celestial Elf Racename. Since this has a CR of 1/2, he can summon (looking at the chart and choosing the best listing...) four of them to guard the Prince. They will remain loyal to the commands of the character, and remain close to the Prince, for the 13 hour duration of the spell.

Does that explain it better?

The chart I made explains it better, but I could not find a way to post it...

As to the CR not equating to the ability of the creature, another good way to do this is to add a penalty of +1 or more to the CR of a creature that has a difficult ability to handle. A Celestial with Cure light wounds at will might normally have a CR of 5, but might be changed for summoning effects to have a CR much higher. This way you can ignore the rule about "effects not lasting past summons duration" as long as you keep the CR of the creatures balanced for play... This may even be the better way of doing it than my way. May be changing this soon...

Mr. Oberon...
"Hey, I just had another good idea!"

 

[Plane Sailing]

In general I think the idea is a good one, although I think you make a mistake in making "instantaneous" spells roll-back their effects. Healing shouldn't disappear, just like the damage from fireballs shouldn't disappear.

I like the idea of using "effective CR increases" as a means of making weaker creatures stay around longer, and I like the idea of giving people the opportunity to summon creatures more powerful than they could handle (although this is normally covered by the various "planar binding" spells IIRC)

Cheers

 

[mroberon1972]

In general I think the idea is a good one, although I think you make a mistake in making "instantaneous" spells roll-back their effects. Healing shouldn't disappear, just like the damage from fireballs shouldn't disappear.

I like the idea of using "effective CR increases" as a means of making weaker creatures stay around longer, and I like the idea of giving people the opportunity to summon creatures more powerful than they could handle (although this is normally covered by the various "planar binding" spells IIRC)

Thats why I'm probably scrapping it and adding a CR penalty to certain monsters. What do people think? Would a CR 4 Celestial Cockatrice be too much for a 4th level spell?

Lets see... It has to make a to hit roll, then gives a fort save... I figure the characters about 8th level, and the same CR for the villains... Figure that the Cockatrice can only hit and stone about one time in 5-10... Lasts 8 rounds... Chances are that it will be able to turn somebody to stone.

Compare this with the 6th level flesh to stone spell and a 12th level caster for casting it: ranged attack of 100+ feet, DR for the spell of about 19, happens immediately... Perhaps your right... Hard to say...

What do you guys think of the CR in the book being for summoned creatures? As it is, I've had to add 2 CR to all dragons in order to balance them with the spell...

And gods above help me: My wizard has just paid the cost to summon a Celestial Gelatinous Cube... ARRRGGGG! I HATE those things... They are so.... Silly... Celestial no less... Kill me now!

I'm thinking about making her use some kind of water elemental template instead for it... Anyone know of one?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Why the truename and truerace stuff? Can't you just live with "if you've met one, you know you can summon it" or alternately some roll on knowledge: the planes? I don't think that it's beneficial to make a wizard spend even MORE money and experience than he already does.

 

[mroberon1972]

Cost for monsters:

Cost for monsters:

Reason is threefold:

~ First, it prevents the spellcaster from owning the entire monster manual as spellslaves at the same time. (Let's see... I need a monster for this special situation...)

~ Second, I get tired of stopping the game as the party wizard pages through the MM for a good monster. This way, she already has the stats on hand as a part of her research.

~ Third, It fits the fictional "theme" of summoning. Supposidly it takes research to summon a creature. Not to mention a sacrifice to use it. The XP cost is overall very cheep. Especially since it only has to be paid once.

 

[las]

This is a good idea. Some of this I can use. So of it ill change.

Heres an idea they reaserch and lock in a creature for any summon monster spell. Think in the lines of FF10 (well kinda).

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

What about creatures with class-levels. Can my wiz 13 learn the truename of a half-fiend Ogre Barbarian? What about its specific stats, for instance could I learn the name of one with a 28 str or does it just have standard stats?

What about truerace. Suppose I know the truerace Half-fiend Ogre. I assume that I can't summon anything except non-classed half-fiend Ogres with standard stats.

I think that allowin truename summons to summon specific classed creatures, with stats rolled when the truename is created would be a nice addition.