ATTN Piazo: Dungeon mag and Dragon mag CD-roms & the Tasini v NY Times decision

JollyBGood said:
To be honest, I'd have no problem whatsoever if the publisher had a clear right to do so. And let's face it -- as a writer it's nice to know your work isn't lost and hidden away in stacks of old magazines that aren't read any more.


I'll take that to mean, Yes, Jolly would be an author who would be concerned if a publisher just started reprinting old magazines that he has articles in. Partly by virtue of the fact that he negotiates deals so he retains extra rights.

The point with reprinting old stuff is that it is NOT a clear deal. There's too many authors, some are gone, and the contracts are often too primitive (is a CD a reprint or not, what's a CD). It's almost easier to make the CD and ask for forgiveness later.

When it comes to the Dragon Magazine Archive CD, its a done deal. The question would then be, what happened to the suit that was trying to start with all the old writers. Did only 2 concerned authors show up, so they gave up?

It sounds like Kenzerco raised issue (technically they didn't start a lawsuit) with WOTC and they resolved it. From Sean's side at the time, maybe it looked like a lawsuit. From Jolly's maybe it looked like a business discussion. Jolly's at the top of Kenzerco (and pretty much always was when he joined I assume), whereas Sean was one of the "individual contributors" who worked with people (the CD guys) whose product was getting hassled by suits from Kenzerco. It may or may not have happened that way, but I can see how each side could have come away from it.

So the deal obviously didn't break the bank, even though WoTC took a chance with the copyright and reprint rights being fuzzy.

Janx
 

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JollyBGood said:
Understandable. But NDA's being what they are I'm at a disadvantage here.

Sure.

d20Dwarf said:
I don't see it this way at all, so I'd be careful saying most people. A lawsuit implies coercive legal action rather than cooperative legal negotiations, which is more likely in this case.

Conspiracy theorists and jealous designers aside, who really cares about the particulars of the agreement? It's not as if some grave injustice happened.

Maybe not most people, but surely a large number of non-legally trained ones. Anyway, I don't really care anput the aprticularts, it was just a point i was making.

Calico_Jack73 said:
Drat!!! I was always hoping for a Dungeon collection on CD-ROM. I find Dungeon more helpful than Dragon. If game night comes along and I have writer's block I can always pull out a copy of Dungeon and run something even if I only have 30 minutes till gametime.

Do you regularly switch between 1e, 2e and 3e? cos old dungeons with no prep time would require that? A lot of early dragon stuff can be mined for straight non-mechanical ideas much easier I would have thought.
 

I was having internet problems two days ago, so this message I composed couldn't be posted. It repeats some of what some other people have said, but I thought it had some additional info that y'all might find interesting or relevant, so here it is.

silentspace said:
Back on topic though, I'm not sure I agree. If someone wants to buy a Dragon CD, why does he not want to give Jolly their money? They have no problem giving the publishers their money, the office staff, the cleaning staff, the landlords the publishers are paying rent to, etc. Why not to Jolly as well?

Perhaps the buyer is looking at it as a matter of, "If I want magazine X's issues 1-100, do I track down the original print runs for all 100 issues, track down reprints for all 100 issues, or grab the electronic "reprint" on CD-ROM? Which is easiest for the consumer? Uses less paper? Takes up the least amount of space? Has a search function to find the exact article you want instead of waiting for the "index issue" printed every couple of years?

If an electronic version of the magazine on CD-ROM is really no different than a paper reprint, why should the authors and artists get any more compensation for that material? Why is it that a company that wants to issue a collection of magazines -- a product that consumers want and would be very handy -- can do so without a peep from the contributors if they just reissue the magazines in paper form (possibly adding a nice set of slipcases, possibly not), but as soon as those magazines are compiled into an electronic format, it's a massive copyright violation?
This sort of thing leaves the company with four options.
(1) Rerelease the mags in paper. Very expensive to produce, older issues were hand-typeset and would have to be scanned and made print-ready for modern machines, uses a lot of paper, takes up a lot of space on shelves and in the warehouse, a very niche item, very high price for the consumer (you're basically paying for every issue of the mag, with prices adjusted for inflation ... for the Dragon archive that's $5 times 250 issues = $1,250) which few can afford.
(2) Rerelease the mags in electronic format. This entails getting the magazines scanned and put on CD. Not too expensive. Small shelf footprint, small cost for the consumer, much more effective as a product.
(3) As #2, but according to your reasoning (tracking down all the authors), the company should also have to contact every single author/artist that ever created something for the magazine and get their permission to use that material again in what is essentially an electronic reprint. The company has to pay those who demand money or not include their material, and leave out material from contributors who can't be located. This requires editing the scanned files (more work, more expense). Suddenly the electronic version isn't complete, and is therefore less valuable to those interested in buying it. And how are they to know if their favorite article or story from issue #Z is included in the archive? Should a big master list be made of every single thing that's in or not in the magazine compilation, just so the consumer knows exactly what he's getting? More work, more expense ... higher cost to the end consumer.
(4) Not reprint the product at all.

Option 1 is impractical.
Option 2 is ideal.
Option 3 is impractical and isn't much of a benefit to the consumer.
Option 4 is easiest.

Because of some contributors complaining (i.e., option 3), WotC had problems making the Dragon CD-ROM. As far as I can tell, that's why there is no Dungeon or Polyhedron CD-ROM (i.e, option 4). Who is hurt? The consumers.

{Again, I don't know much about the industry, but as I said earlier, I don't think the writers will be asking for "millions" as some think. They may not even ask for anything. And some of their contracts are probably written so that they can't ask for anything.}

Certainly some of the older contracts have WotC/TSR owning everything outright (I ran into this question when I was TSR webmaster and was putting old issues online ... I needed Legal's approval on which article went up based on which ones we owned outright, mainly those written by people on staff at the time). Finding out which contracts apply and don't is another time-consuming (and thus expensive in terms of man-hours) problem.

And if you just assume 4 authors per issue (not counting some authors who have articles in many issues, I'm talking 4 new authors per issue), that's 1,000 authors over the course of 250 issues. 1,000 letters to send out asking for permission. And given your initial contract was probably betwee $100 and $300, and only assuming a 10% "reprint fee" charged by each author, that's still $10,000-$30,000. And then there are the artists, who are going to number at least as many as the authors, and probably for a similar expense. Suddenly this reprint is going to cost you $20,000-$60,000, and you'll only know how much after tracking down a bunch of people. And some of them will refuse and you'll get an incomplete product that the consumers will complain about. In any case, $20k-$60k is no small amount of money, even for WotC. That's 1-3 salaries, depending on what they're doing at the company. And under the watchful and evil eye of Hasbro, no department is going to happily fork over that kind of money easily.

{I do see the problem with finding some of the writers from the old days, but really, how big of a problem is that? So what, they have to make a few phone calls?}

How about I give you names of 5 authors and/or artists from, say, Dragon #50. You try to track them down and tell us how easy it is. Not everything is just a Google search away. People move, they change names, they change careers, they disappear, they die.
 

JollyBGood said:
I've never met Sean and certainly don't have any problems with him personally. I can't speak for Sean, but as far as I know he doesn't have a beef with me. If he does it's certainly news to me.

True, we've never met and we've never discussed this. I just frown upon KenzerCo's legal strongarming to get the D&D license for nothing. There is another issue related to that, but I'm not inclined to bring it up in a public forum.
 

silentspace said:
What I don't understand is why the publishers can't afford pennies! Why can't the publisher make a simple agreement for the writers (the ones who they don't already have an agreement covering electronic rights with). Saying, for example, that they will be paid such and such a percentage of costs if sales exceed X dollars, but nothing if sales does not meet that amount? Seems like a solution that would make everyone happy.
Others have already pointed this out, but it bears repeating. It is NOT pennies. Finding, contacting and negotiating such contracts would takes many hundreds, if not thousands of hours. Multiply that times the hourly cost of good help and the project is no longer profitable. Multiply it by the hourly cost of good legal help and the project is no longer feasible.

-Dave
 

DaveStebbins said:
Others have already pointed this out, but it bears repeating. It is NOT pennies. Finding, contacting and negotiating such contracts would takes many hundreds, if not thousands of hours. Multiply that times the hourly cost of good help and the project is no longer profitable. Multiply it by the hourly cost of good legal help and the project is no longer feasible.

-Dave
And if a project's not feasible or profitable, then don't do it. Certainly don't just up and decide that author's rights are meaningless, and that contracts should not be adhered to.

Sean, are you suggesting that in cases of inconvenience, companies should just proceed without regard to contracts or rights? If not, under what circumstances is it ok for an artist to assert his rights to his own work?
 
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seankreynolds said:
True, we've never met and we've never discussed this. I just frown upon KenzerCo's legal strongarming to get the D&D license for nothing. There is another issue related to that, but I'm not inclined to bring it up in a public forum.

I can live with that, Sean. Glad to hear it's not personal. I have enough enemies as it is and not the hitpoints to deal with them. ;D

Not sure if I'd really call it strongarming but that pesty NDA prevents me from really being able to defend KenzerCo without violating it. Not a big deal really. People will have thier opinions and I'm kewl with that.

I have no idea how many details you've been privy to, but suffice it to say the Dragon CD was but *one* small part of the overall equation. Some might call it strongarming. Others might prefer to see it as protecting one's IP (which the copyright laws require one to do).

The notion that we could 'strongarm' a giant like WotC is really kind of hard to wrap my head around. If we earned that level of bragging rights I certainly wasn't aware of it.

Peace.
 
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seankreynolds said:
If an electronic version of the magazine on CD-ROM is really no different than a paper reprint, why should the authors and artists get any more compensation for that material?

I think the courts have answered that question in a very clear way haven't they?

My main problem with the mentality of putting magazines on CD is that there seems to be a blanket assumption that the writers and artists have somehow relinquished all rights to the material and simply have no say n the matter (as well as NOTHING coming to them).

That's a very dangerous assumption for a publisher to make -- unfortunately some publishers are learning that lesson the hard way.


Clearly, if a freelancer signs a contract that retains certains rights to his material he has a right to expect the publisher to honor that contract.
 

WizarDru said:
It's possible that a Dungeon collection might be less problematic than a Dragon collection, if only because Dungeon didn't start publication until 1986, when presumably they may have been writing better contracts. I agree that a Dungeon collection would be a wonderful thing...espcially since I'm missing so many issues of that fine periodical.

It's quite possible Dungeon (as was Dragon) *IS* the problematic quagmire you fear it to be -- since so many different contracts and people are involved. Is it realistic to think you could track down every artist, every writer, review every release form and contract...? Not to mention a changing legal landscape that doesn't seem to have firmly decided how such compilations should be handled. I think not.

It could be there's no simple solution and a Dungeon CD simply isn't feasible given the amount of manhours and risk involved.

Yes that sucks but just because contacting every freelancer presents an enormous challenge doesn't remove the neccesity to do so.

A writer/artist doesn't forfeit his rights simply because it's inconvienent.

For example, as a publisher I wouldn't touch such a CD compilation of SHADIS with a ten foot pole. I know for a fact half the material we published was based on a virtual handshake basis and no paper work exists regarding rights and ownership. With the exception of my own material that ran in Shadis I would have to say the legal status of the magazine's content is in limbo.

So no matter how great the demand there might be for a Shadis compilation (not that there's any demand out there -- I'm just using it as an example) it just wouldn't be feasible to do one. Simply putting out a SHADIS CD compilation and hoping nobody complained would be wreckless.
 
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JollyBGood said:
Yes that sucks but just because contacting every freelancer presents an enormous challenge doesn't remove the neccesity to do so.

A writer/artist doesn't forfeit his rights simply because it's inconvienent.
I firmly agree with that. Quite honestly, given the unpleasant revelations of TSR business practices in its later days, I'm sure you're right. I've been gleaning some copyright legal information for reasons unrelated to this thread, and one shining thing that comes through is that a creator doesn't and shouldn't have to proactively defend his copyright.

As I mentioned before, a publisher has an equal right to NOT publish something as he does to publish it. I may, on a personal level, find it irritating when I can't get access to something I enjoy, but on a professional level I have to respect that real life just isn't that simple.

And quite honestly, if I truly want something like those Dungeon issues...I can get them. The issue is one of the ratio of cost/desire. Do I want a new laptop, or do I want a complete collection of Dungeon? Do I want to spend three hours on ebay tonight, or run my game?

I do hope that folks like Paizo are considering these issues in their contracts now, though. Of course, when wetwire-direct holography broadcasts become the norm, we'll go through this again. :D
 

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