ATTN Piazo: Dungeon mag and Dragon mag CD-roms & the Tasini v NY Times decision

[Janx]

actually, life is really that simple as scanning and burning a cd. It's all the middlemen that make it complicated.

Using Jolly as a scapegoat example (only because he's well known, has material in Dragon magazine, and probably wants to get paid if its reprinted, ie. no insult intended):

WoTC had no problem making the Dragon Archive CD. Piece of cake. Lots of hours scanning, and putting into PDFs. Then they burn a CD and ship it.

The problem comes in because everybody wants a piece of the profits. Technically, Jolly contributed something (KoDT), but compared to the initial profits from the print release ($5 mag X # sales X 250 - expenses), the CD will never be that profitable ($50 CD X # sales - expenses). Assuming every contributor was in a database, and I could calculate their 'cut' its just not that much money. Yet these contributors would stand in the way of releasing the CD anyway. Brom, Larry Smith and all those others got their art books and calendars, regardless of whether the CD was released. It really didn't affect them or Jolly, except for their "desire to limit release" and "get a piece of the action" Now I'm not saying any of these guys mentioned made a big stink about it, but that's appearance thats put on by authors wanting to limit rights to "one printing only" type deals.

Why not simply accept it as "I sold WotC a copy, and after a certain time, I sell somebody else a copy, and if WotC reuses their copy, so long as my work is intact and attributed, great!"

Maybe its also a matter of scale. A reprint CD is pretty boring and has minimal profit margins for any single contributor. Versus reprinting/republishing a specific product at "normal" price and achieving sales similar to the first time. Given a choice, contributors should be pursuing protection for the latter, whereas the former is not worth their time.

Janx

 

[WizarDru]

It really didn't affect them or Jolly, except for their "desire to limit release" and "get a piece of the action" Now I'm not saying any of these guys mentioned made a big stink about it, but that's appearance thats put on by authors wanting to limit rights to "one printing only" type deals.

Why not simply accept it as "I sold WotC a copy, and after a certain time, I sell somebody else a copy, and if WotC reuses their copy, so long as my work is intact and attributed, great!"

Because we're not just talking about the option to reprint a particular picture or article alone, we're talking about a question of profitability, future reprint rights, legal liability, poor precedent and a variety of other issues. It sounds like you think that the only reason anyone would prevent such a releasal would be purely out of spite or greed...and that ain't necessarily so. I'll let those with a more experience, like Jolly, go into detail.

 

[Kesh]

I think the courts have answered that question in a very clear way haven't they?

Not at all. As mentioned on the first page, the National Geographic ruling puts the whole issue up in the air again.

My main problem with the mentality of putting magazines on CD is that there seems to be a blanket assumption that the writers and artists have somehow relinquished all rights to the material and simply have no say n the matter (as well as NOTHING coming to them).

Well, it really comes down to how this court proceeding plays out. If the courts eventually rule that CDs are mere reprints, then I'd say it's within the publisher's rights. If they rule in favor of the contributors, that CDs are 'new works', then you do have a say in the matter and the CDs just plain won't happen.

Either way, IANAL, and I'm waiting to see how this plays out.

 

[silentspace]

I do see the problem with finding some of the writers from the old days, but really, how big of a problem is that? So what, they have to make a few phone calls? And if they can't locate a writer, then just don't include their work. Simple. Sorry, I just don't have much sympathy for the publishers here.

No need for people to get all snooty and worked up by my statment. If I wasn't communicating clearly, let me try again:

1- Jolly said that his standard contracts signed away 'electronic publication' rights, and that few freelancers bother to change it (although cartoonists probably will). Therefore, the amount of writers you need to contact is likely a small percentage of the total.
2- Out of that small percentage that a publisher would need to contact, I think its safe to assume that a majority of those are still 'in the system'. By this I mean they kept their same names or should otherwise be relatively easy to contact with a few internet searches and phone calls. This would leave an even smaller percentage who are harder to contact.
3- For the very small percentage of writers that cannot be located, I suggested to just not include them. Never did I say the publishers should spend thousands of man-hours and untold amounts of money to track them down.

Really, you people need to relax. And read the posts.

And just in case you didn't read the posts, let me state that my point was that publishers should try to honor their contracts. I never made any statements whatsoever that CD reprints are different or the same as paper reprints. That is a moot point. The point is that some contracts (such as Jolly's) specifically exclude 'electronic publication'. That has nothing to do with whether a CD reprint is the same as or different from a paper reprint, but whether a CD reprint can be considered an 'electronic publication'. Now I suppose the argumentative ones can argue that a CD is not an 'electronic publication', but I think most normal people will agree that it is.

 

[seankreynolds]

Sean, are you suggesting that in cases of inconvenience, companies should just proceed without regard to contracts or rights? If not, under what circumstances is it ok for an artist to assert his rights to his own work?

I don't think it's right for the company to barrel on through if it's inconvenient to check up on contract rights. And I think it's OK for an author or artist to assert his rights to his work. However, I don't think the contract rights apply in the case of CD-ROM compilations.

There are two issues here. (1) Whether or not the CD-ROM counts as a reprint. (2) Whether the author/artist complaints about the CD-ROM reducing the marketability of their old work holds water.

For point 1....
I don't see a CD-ROM "reprint" of a series of mags as any different than reprinting them in paper, or on plastic, or on sheepskin, or as an audiobook, or in braille.

And because I don't see the final form of the magazine as any different, I don't think the authors in question have the legal right to complain about CD-ROM reprint any more than they do about a paper reprint. If the author/artist is legally OK with the company reprinting the magazine a BILLION times and burying the earth with cover-price copies of the magazine (for which the author/artist doesn't receive a dime, since they've been paid for their work), the author/artist should be OK with the company "reprinting" the magazine on CD-ROM.

Jolly's contract (where he retains electronic rights) brings up an interesting question about the status of those contract rights. Personally I don't think the "I retain electronic rights" clause is valid when considering the reprint. But I'm not a lawyer, and I'm also much more generous when it comes to my own material (i.e, more than willing to give it away after a short while); other authors and artists certainly have differing opinions ... but IMO a lot of the more conservative contibutors out there have to realize that their older material isn't _that_ valuable, and the clinginess they have toward it only hurts the consumer.

As for point 2....
Remember, the game industry rule of thumb is that 90% of a typical book's revenue comes from the first three months of sales ... so after a year, it's basically not generating income. ("Evergreen" products like the core books are the exception) So you have authors and artists who don't like the idea of a CD-ROM reprint because they claim such a thing reduces their ability to market their work.
But if you're talking about a short story you wrote five years ago, having the story OOP doesn't help you (it doesn't make the story any more valuable unless you're the Next Big Thing In Authordom). Having it available through a $50 CD-ROM as one of several hundred such stories (and other gaming-niche articles) isn't going to reduce your chances of pitching a collection of short stories to a publisher. The argument from the author is that the publisher will say: "Oh, so you want to make a $20 book that's a collection of your short stories, and the only other place to find this one story is in an OOP magazine article or a $50 CD-ROM? Sorry, that CD-ROM makes it too easy to get that story and there's no reason for people to buy your proposed book. Now get outta my office." I don't think that argument holds water. In fact, I think the CD-ROM will expose more people to your work, people who didn't know you before they got the CD-ROM, and if they like your short story they'll try to find other things by you ... such as the short story collection you got published.
As for artist, the same thing applies. If you're an artist, and you make a name for yourself, and eventually you want to publish a book of your illustrations, is the presence of a screen-resolution copy of one of your illos on a Dragon Mag CD-ROM going to prevent a fan from buying your book? "Wow, I could have a book-sized print of this great color illo, or I could have a crappy 72 DPI scan on a PDF ... clearly I want the PDF!" Same situation as the artist ... person buys CD-ROM, sees cool art by Mr. Artist, tracks down more things by Mr. Artist.

Maybe I'm just too generous; I don't see the release of the CD-ROM really hurting the authors or artists (in fact, it's making their material available to more fans). And I see _not_ releasing the CD-ROM as only hurting the fans.

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble.

 

[WizarDru]

But if you're talking about a short story you wrote five years ago, having the story OOP doesn't help you (it doesn't make the story any more valuable unless you're the Next Big Thing In Authordom).

Sean, do you feel this applies to people like the estates of Fritz Leiber, many established fantasy writers (like GRRM) and established artists like Brom? And would the publishing of such material potentially jeapordize their release on CD-ROM elsewhere, or does that not even factor into it?

I would think that MOST of the authors in that collection don't have much value in their material...but a dozen or so DO. I don't know how well it would sell, but I would be suprised if EGG couldn't turn a profit collecting his articles from Dragon over the past 25 years, updating them and releasing them in some form. But he's obviously more of the exception than the rule.

 

[seankreynolds]

Sean, do you feel this applies to people like the estates of Fritz Leiber, many established fantasy writers (like GRRM) and established artists like Brom? And would the publishing of such material potentially jeapordize their release on CD-ROM elsewhere, or does that not even factor into it?

I'm not sure what you mean by "this applies to." If you're asking if I think those people do not have justifiable value in their old material, no; there is value in it. However, even for those people the CD-ROM isn't going to destract from sales of their story collections or art collections. Really, if you're a fan of GRRM, and you have the choice of spending $50 for a CD-ROM compilation that has a couple of GRRM stories or $20 on a new hardback that's _entirely_ GRRM stories, I think the fans are going to go with the hardback. Likewise, Brom fans would prefer one of his print books (with 100+ illos) for $35 to a CD-ROM compilation that contains perhaps 20 low-quality scans of his art. In other words, these established authors/artists shouldn't see the CD-ROM as competition to products for which they actually make royalties. The release of the CD-ROM isn't going to factor into the sales of their print book in any statistically significant sort of way. People aren't buying the CD-ROMs for all the great short stories (many of them aren't that great) or all the art (all of which are screen resolution at best), they want the gaming articles. If you want the stories or the art, there are far more convenient ways to get them, and far more convenient formats in which to read them or look at them.

And in terms of cost/benefit for the authors/artists, remember, we're in the era of e-publishing. There's nothing stopping Author/Artist X from right now producing a self-published PDF or print-on-demand collection of his short stories/prints, and at more profit than any reprint payments from the magazine.

I would think that MOST of the authors in that collection don't have much value in their material...but a dozen or so DO. I don't know how well it would sell, but I would be suprised if EGG couldn't turn a profit collecting his articles from Dragon over the past 25 years, updating them and releasing them in some form. But he's obviously more of the exception than the rule.

Well, AFAIK Mr. Gygax gave up all rights to his prior Dragon articles when he left TSR (part of his exit agreement, through which he kept the rights to Gord the Rogue and other novel characters he created and used), but he'd have to say whether or not I'm correct (and it's not really relevant anyway). But that aside, yes, there are a few who could do that, and there's nothing stopping them from publishing such a collection.*
The question is, does the existence of the CD-ROM mean that people won't buy the Complete Gygax Article Collection (CGAC)? Do you think that people who want the collected articles of Gygax would prefer them in a book or PDF all by themselves (the CGAC), rather than interspersed over 250 issues -- and 250 separate files, mind you -- of a magazine complete with ads and such?
My answers: No, the CD-ROM won't stop people from buying the book. Yes, I think these buyers would prefer a CGAC to the CD-ROM. (They might still find the CD-ROM valuable, but would find the CGAC more convenient).

* This is a point I want to reinforce: If the author or artist retains any rights to his work, then he can go ahead and make his own compilation product of that work. I don't think the CD-ROM is going to detract from that, any more than using Book A using OGL feat B from Book C makes a person any less likely to buy Book C. And for the record I'm not knocking Dragon, the CD-ROM, or the quality of the authors and artists. I like the folks at Dragon, I like my CD-ROM, and there have been short stories and many pieces of art I liked. I just don't think the CD-ROM is a threat to other works.

 

[DaveStebbins]

1- Jolly said that his standard contracts signed away 'electronic publication' rights, and that few freelancers bother to change it (although cartoonists probably will). Therefore, the amount of writers you need to contact is likely a small percentage of the total.

The problem is that, with the Dragon CD, we're talking about many contracts written almost 30 years ago, before there were even personal computers, much less any inkling about electronic rights. Contracts written even a decade ago probably didn't include such ideas. Until the compilations and lawsuits, which are fairly recent, there was no reason to include anything about electronic reproductions.

3- For the very small percentage of writers that cannot be located, I suggested to just not include them. Never did I say the publishers should spend thousands of man-hours and untold amounts of money to track them down.

As others have pointed out, this lessens the value of the product. All it takes is a few people shouting "my favorite articles weren't included" to create bad word-of-mouth and poorer sales on what may already be a marginal product.

Maybe it is the cynic in me, but unless the courts rule electronic reprints are just reprints, I don't believe compilations will happen. Maybe in the future, when publishers have enough back product which was written during the age of "electronic reproduction" clauses in contracts, but not anytime soon.

-Dave

 

[Kichwas]

I've heard that the CD ROMs didn't sell very well. THey're still available 4 years later actually.

It's strange because it's hands down one of the best purchaces I've ever made. I'd easily go for a Dungeon archive

I dunno, all I ever use my copy of the CD's for is to look up things like the special rules for females and show people just how geeky gamers really are...

 

[Kichwas]

Dragon was an unusual case; the majority of freelancers who contributed to Dragon, also gamers themselves, got more from the CD-ROM archives than they lost, because the majority of work done was for outdated game systems, and no longer commercially viable.

Lets say I had been one of those freelancers and had authored up an amazingly good article on DMing political intrigues in a freeform manner.

In said article I had quoted an assortment of rules one could use from 1E AD&D, as well as offered up some new rules to go alongside.

Now along comes Publisher X doing a book on gamemastering for it's highly popular RPG and it's 15 or so years later and I want to grab the project...

I know my best work is sitting there in an old Dragon, and I want to take it, update it to RPG-X, and republush it.

If I still have second rights I can do this, but if I sold the thing off fully I'm at a loss. Not only that but if I write something original but a little too similar for Publisher-X, I and they might get sued by Hasbro (witness how Gygax got sued over Dangerous Journeys - and all he did was write in the same genre as he had for TSR)...

I remember hearing some frustration from the authors after 3E came out over the parts that got cut for space that they wished they'd not sent in and lost rights to...