AU Unfettered vs. AEG Swashbuckler -- compare and contrast please!

[Hodag]

I have been running a Swashbuckling Adventures campaign for sometime now and I agree that unless you use the SA feats and sword school PrCs the SA Swashbuckler isn't that tough, but if you do use those schools and feats they are REALLY cool. I have just started running AU and one of the players is a human Unfettered, the same bit about feats applies, as long as they have access to the AU feat lists they're great, using standard 3E feats they're okay.
The other light fighters in SA, Pirate, Assassin, Thean Ranger, Musketeer, Highwayman, Spy, Noble...all fall under the same precepts as the Swashbuckler as well, the thing in SA is that gunpowder weapons are relatively common and most of the above classes get them as a starting weapon prof. The only real heavy fighters in SA are the Core Fighter, Barbarian, and the Thean Paladin. There are some PrCs that require heavier weapons then a rapier but
the game is built to simulate the renaissance era.

Here is the SA Swashbuckler:

Good BAB Good Ref. Bad For. and Will.
Typical Fighter Skill set but with Bluff, Use Rope, and Sense Motive added
d6 Hit Die 2+ Skill Points

Profs. Club, Cutlass, Dagger, Short Sword, Rapier, Scimitar, and Small Sword. Light Armor
and Small and Medium Shields. Exotic Weapon Prof. Firearms

Bonus Feats at 4, 6, 10, 12, 16, 18, 20
1st Adds Int or Wis Mod to AC
2nd Gets Weapon Finesse for all finesseable weapons as long as they are wearing Light or
no armor.
4th can add a die roll (d4) instead of Str Mod to melee damage
8th Can add Cha Mod to Attack and Damage 1/day adds another use per day
at 13th and 19th level.
14th May ignore opponents AC bonus from Medium or Heavy Armor.


In regards to the The Complete Fighter, in my ridiculously humble opinion it, all in all, just sucks and isn't worth the money. I returned my copy for refund, after looking through it to find any redeeming feature and failing miserably.

 

[Apok]

I know the game-balance rationale behind Wounding Critical. Note that I have no problems with the swashbuckler adding Int bonus to damage, which addresses the same issue. However, I can't see any reason, in terms of the _underlying archetype_, for causing Con damage on crits. It all seems a bit slapdash.

EDIT: And goddammit, what kind of stupid name is Wounding Critical anyway? What is a critical hit except something that wounds you? I suppose any other critical is like a love-slap with nerf bats or something?

Well, I suppose you could just drop it and give the Swashbuckler a Sneak Attack progression. Also, if you wanted to get his Charisma modifier involved, you could give the Swashbuckler an ability which lets him increase his weapon's threat range by a number equal to his Cha mod. Call it, "Death by Panache" or something...

Yeah, Wounding Critical is a rather boring name but I think the WotC designers are staying away from more fanciful special ability names in favor of more utilitarian ones that describe the ability. It's a pity, really, 'cuz I was so looking forward to a PrC with ability names like Vicious Maiming Onslaught or Glorious Carnage Typhoon...

 

[Tessarael]

My vote goes for Unfettered. Note that in Arcane Unearthed, anyone with Weapon Focus, a truename and BAB +4 can pick Weapon Specialization.

Why Unfettered?

More choice. 6 bonus feats in 20 levels. I'm not railroaded into taking class-specific abilities that might not suit my character concept.

I don't like Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike. Give them Weapon Specialization instead. Insightful Strike is open to abuse by anyone who can get high Intelligence. I don't like the class features or feats that allow you to have more than one core ability adding to something ... if Intelligence (or say Charisma) replaced Strength damage bonus, ok, not abusive.

Many of the Swashbuckler abilities are fun for a dashing rope-swinging warrior. No problem. Make them feats. Skill Mastery - it's a feat in Arcana Unearthed - okay, that handles Acrobatic Skill Mastery. Slippery Mind is also a feat in Arcana Unearthed. I prefer more generic core classes with customizability in the shape of feats, with most class features instead being feats that can be purchased.

Swashbuckler's Reflex save is silly. Make it a good save, and give them Evasion. Evasion is as appropriate for Swashbuckler as it is for Ranger. Get rid of this silly Grace +1 ability that just clutters the class progression.

Swashbuckler's Weaking Critical and Wounding Critical ... okay, they're kind of funky ... same deal ... give them some Sneak Attack ability, then make a feat which allows you to swap say 2d6 of Sneak Attack for 2 Strength damage.

Weapon Finesse is appropriate for any Dex based fighter. I'm not sure why 3.5E D&D persists in having a feat for this. It wouldn't be a big deal just to drop the feat and let anyone use Dex with finessable weapons.

I do like Swashbuckler's hit dice and skill points/level. I long for a Fighter/Rogue cross-class with 6 skill points/level that is not a wilderness Ranger ... but Unfettered and Swashbuckler are much better than Fighter in this regard.

For balance and flavor, I think it's either you get d10 HD (Swashbuckler) or d8 HD and Evasion (Unfettered). Seems to work okay.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

It don't see this class as being madly overpowered. Less feats than a fighter, less hit points, less AC overall, in exchange for a bonus to AC against one opponent (handy for a duelist, but still not necessarily bigger than the bonus of an armor with magic enhancement), sneak attack, the capacity to save better against one spell from time to time.

While I agree that the Unfettered is pretty well balanced, against both AU classes and core classes, I disagree that they give up AC. They get a level-based dodge bonus, light armor, and the parry ability. If using AU's light armor, a devanian chain shirt is wonderful. Though it is exotic, it has no armor check penalty, an AC bonus of +4, and a max dex of +8. Even without the Exotic Armor feat, an Unfettered can wear this with no penalty. Combine this with enhancement bonuses to AC, a Dex-boosting item, an excellent shield, and Natural Armor, and the Unfettered becomes the guy with the highest AC almost every time, easily rivaling AU's Warmain.

Make no mistake about it folks: the Unfettered is the defensive king, while still being able to deal out a hardy bit of damage.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Yeah my local unfettered is very hard to touch. Oddly, though he has the highest AC in the party, his flat footed AC is the lowest.

Mind you, I'm fairly certain our Warmain could give him a run for his money if he cared to try.

 

[Gez]

Yep. My bad. I totally forgot about the dodge bonus AC progression.

It's like a bad save progression, with a +1 bonus (1+ level/3).

So, yes, the AC he can get is impressive. Especially given it's a excellent touch AC, while touch attacks are usually the bane of fighters.

You get to use the surprise round against them, though.

 

[Corinthi]

I own both books and I have to say that both have thier place.

The AEG Swashbuckler is just fine in Theah. Many of the SA feats areconsiderably more powerful than stock D&D or AU feats. The Swashbuckler really needs those feats to thrive, especially the unarmored AC feats, which are incredibly potent. I would not use AEG's Swashbuckler in core D&D because I've played Swashbuckling Adventures and have seen how potent those characters become. SA has decent internal balance, but isn't intended to be balanced with Core D&D.

The Unfettered is balanced just fine for Core D&D, at least in my eyes. That said, I firmly assert that the Unfettered is a better class than the fighter. More skill points and better class abilities. The Unfettered is more flavorful and crunchier than the 3.5 fighter. But then, so is the 3.5 Barbarian and the 3.5 Ranger. In the efforts of fairness, I just don't like the Fighter. Perhaps had the 3.5 design team made some effort to make feats more interesting I'd feel differently, but they didn't. All I've ever seen the fighter class used for is a couple of bonus feats on the way to a prestige class. I'm not a fan of prestige classes. Give me a core class that's interesting enough to stick with for 20 levels and I'm happy.

Hmm, that was a bit of a diversion. Anyway, the AEG Swashbuckler is fine for Swashbuckling Adventures, but takes a bit too much tweaking to be effective in standard D&D without being /too/ effective. The Unfettered is my choice for a finesse fighter.

 

[Psion]

As it is, there's nothing stopping the swashbuckler treating Cha as a dump stat, and that seems to work against type, if nothing else.

Ironically, that seems to be the strength of the AEG version under these rules; it has an ability "with style" that allows it to add charisma to hit and damage a limited number of times per day.



I was considering myself whether to add such a class for my upcoming River of Worlds game and after some people talking down at the AEG version here, I was surprised after taking a fresh look at it that it held together so well.

That said, I am thinking about going with the Unfettered and renaming it the Swashbucker. It seems a little strong to me at first, and I fear that it will be too attractive given the type of campaign. That said, they aren't quite the powerhouses that fighters and I may keep the lack of weapon specialization to keep the fighter an attractive alternative. The skill set is a little more roguish and it has more skills than a fighter, and I think it would be too giving in my campaign to give it weapon specialization too. Also, the class makes a better entry into many Masters of Arms prestige classes.

Edit: Perhaps the thing to do is add "with style" as a feat in the unfettered bonus feat list, thus getting the best of both worlds.

 

[Gez]

As I think I've said, to suppress the Cha-as-a-dump-stat syndrom, I have keyed the Parry ability to Charisma. In game, I explains it more as feints than as dodges (the actual flavor of the ability). The unfettered is already dodging enough as-is.

Interestingly, this made me decide it can't be used against mindless opponents, or opponents who don't speak your language. It's the wordy swashbuckler, distracting the opponent with his words to better keep his eyes away from his sword.

I just don't like the Fighter. Perhaps had the 3.5 design team made some effort to make feats more interesting I'd feel differently, but they didn't. All I've ever seen the fighter class used for is a couple of bonus feats on the way to a prestige class. I'm not a fan of prestige classes. Give me a core class that's interesting enough to stick with for 20 levels and I'm happy.

In order to make the fighter less bland, what about this:
At level 4, the fighters get to select Weapon Specialization, a feat that's (nearly) exclusive to his class.
At every 4 levels thereafter (8, 12, 16 and 20), the fighter gets to select another exclusive feat. I would destroy utterly the CW Exotic Weapon Master class, which is ridiculous to begin with, and turn all the stunts into Fighter-only feats that require Weapon Specialization in same weapon.

The fighter would still, of course, be free to select any other feat. Just like he isn't forced to take Weap Spec at level 4.

 

[comrade raoul]

In order to make the fighter less bland, what about this:
At level 4, the fighters get to select Weapon Specialization, a feat that's (nearly) exclusive to his class.
At every 4 levels thereafter (8, 12, 16 and 20), the fighter gets to select another exclusive feat. I would destroy utterly the CW Exotic Weapon Master class, which is ridiculous to begin with, and turn all the stunts into Fighter-only feats that require Weapon Specialization in same weapon.

The fighter would still, of course, be free to select any other feat. Just like he isn't forced to take Weap Spec at level 4.

This is a really, really good idea.