Avenger and Twin Strike question

[Nifft]

By unsavory, I'm sure he means awesome to the point of possibly overpowered.

Why would you think that? Strength (for Twin Strike) isn't even a tertiary ability for an Avenger. He'd need to pump Str to the detriment of his secondary (Int or Dex), or Twin Strike would be near-useless by 12th level.

Now, if you wanted to talk about Avenger + War Priest (+ Heavy Blade Opportunity), that might be broken. Or maybe Avenger + Student of Caiphon (+ a Radiant melee weapon). Some people think Avenger + Daggermaster is broken.

If you want Twin Strike + roll twice, just play a Ranger with the Hero of Faith feat.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Iron Sky]

I made an Avenger + Student of Caiphon (+ a Radiant melee weapon) + Twin Strike for extra brokenness.

He's actually not bad(I tried to make him more balanced than op). At level 16 he has 117hp, +14 init, 32/28/28/28 for defenses and Twin Strike against his oath target is +20/+20, 1d10+10/1d10+9 damage. Crit with main hand of course gives an off-hand attack.

The math on 18-20 crit range with 2d20 rolls is about a 28% crit chance per attack. Twin-strike makes that a 47% crit chance per round(if I remember correctly, haven't opened this guy in a few months).

[sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Lord Priest Syphos the Terrible, level 16
Half-Elf, Avenger, Student of Caiphon
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (star pact)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 9, Wis 20, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 11.


AC: 33 Fort: 28 Reflex: 28 Will: 28
HP: 117 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 29

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +12, Athletics +18, Stealth +15, Perception +18, Bluff +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +7, Diplomacy +12, Dungeoneering +13, Endurance +9, Heal +13, History +7, Insight +15, Intimidate +11, Nature +13, Streetwise +10, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Double axe)
Level 2: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Level 4: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 8: Improved Armor of Faith
Level 10: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 11: Pact Initiate
Level 12: Versatile Master
Level 14: Two-Weapon Opening
Level 16: Two-Weapon Defense

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Avenger at-will 1: Bond of Pursuit
Dilettante: Twin Strike
Avenger encounter 1: Whirlwind Charge
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Distracting Flare
Avenger encounter 3: Deadly Stride
Avenger daily 5: Nine Souls of Wrath
Avenger utility 6: Soul Seeker
Avenger encounter 7: Inexorable Pursuit
Avenger daily 9: Glyph of Agony
Avenger utility 10: River of Life
Avenger encounter 13: Weaving Blades (replaces Whirlwind Charge)
Avenger daily 15: Aspect of Fury (replaces Nine Souls of Wrath)
Avenger utility 16: Avenger's Resolve

ITEMS
Radiant Double axe +3, Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Solitaire (Cinnabar) (heroic tier), Amulet of Protection +4, Feytouched Snakeskin Armor +4, Magic Holy Symbol +3, Rod of Time Distortion +2, Viper Belt (heroic tier), Diamond Bracers (heroic tier), Skull Mask (heroic tier), Hedge Wizard's Gloves (heroic tier), Quickcurse Rod +1
[/sblock]

 

[Turtlejay]

Wait, what? Did you just say that an almost 50% crit chance per round was not OP? With all the crit goodness from feats and magic items available? On an at-will?

Granted, you might not be approaching the impossible, stratospheric DPR that can be seen on the charop forum, but you can do this at Paragon. . .and it is most assuredly OP.

Jay

 

[Nifft]

I made an Avenger + Student of Caiphon (+ a Radiant melee weapon) + Twin Strike for extra brokenness.

Hmm. Looks like you need 11th level to resolve like:
1st: +1 to all ability scores
2nd: Feat choice (multiclass Warlock)
3rd: Paragon Path choice

Even if the Character Builder allows this, the reek of a chthonic, primordial brie permeates it thoroughly.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Droogie128]

Why are you trying to get twin strike as an avenger? Most consider it an unsavory combo.

The ultimate crit fishing build involves a half elf avenger with twin strike as their dilletante, rogue multiclass and daggermaster paragon path. That means at paragon you're making 4 attack rolls at-will with an 18-20 crit range. Hardly unsavory. Even without half elf, twin strike would give you 4 attack rolls at-will at normal crit range.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

We'll, if he's criting on an 18-20, an avenger will crit 28% of the time, as stated by Iron Sky.

Now, with twin weapon fighting, that does become a 40% chance of getting one crit, and an 8% chance of getting 2 (for a total of a whopping 48% chance of critting). Again, as Iron Sky said.

Which really is pretty fantastic... making it a pretty good build no matter the strength of the avenger provided that the avenger hits the target with a roll of 18.

One needs to be a half-elf, though, which doesn't help the OP.

Incidentally, Darklord - any particular reason you want to go twin strike? Is if just for the gaming advantages of getting to reroll 2 attacks/round, or is there some additional reason?

 

[Mengu]

The ultimate crit fishing build involves a half elf avenger with twin strike as their dilletante, rogue multiclass and daggermaster paragon path. That means at paragon you're making 4 attack rolls at-will with an 18-20 crit range. Hardly unsavory.

It's abusing multiple attacks and multiple attack rolls with extended crit range. It's very unsavory when you're the DM, or an average player who doesn't read CharOp boards. And it's unsavory for players who don't like it when one character overshadows others.

 

[Iron Sky]

Wait, what? Did you just say that an almost 50% crit chance per round was not OP? With all the crit goodness from feats and magic items available? On an at-will?

Granted, you might not be approaching the impossible, stratospheric DPR that can be seen on the charop forum, but you can do this at Paragon. . .and it is most assuredly OP.

Jay

If it was DPS Op I would have focused more on Crit-increasing items like War Rings and Fire Bracers, feats like Devestating Critical and Deadly Axe, etc...

Nifft, he also could have picked up Pact Initiate at an earlier level since he had 13 Cha through heroic. That's just the order I happened to pick them.

I wanted this guy to have a balance between damage and defenses. I particularly like how all his NADs are the same. Makes him feel nice and balanced to me.

As far as Daggermaster goes, I have another character going that route, but he'll only be dropping d4s with his 18-20 crit range(once he reaches Paragon that is). With my Student of Caiphon character in the [sblock] above, he's dropping d10s with Twin Strike with the same crit range. Admittedly, the rest of your class features and powers are kinda wasted with SoC, but still...

 

[Droogie128]

If it was DPS Op I would have focused more on Crit-increasing items like War Rings and Fire Bracers, feats like Devestating Critical and Deadly Axe, etc...

Nifft, he also could have picked up Pact Initiate at an earlier level since he had 13 Cha through heroic. That's just the order I happened to pick them.

I wanted this guy to have a balance between damage and defenses. I particularly like how all his NADs are the same. Makes him feel nice and balanced to me.

As far as Daggermaster goes, I have another character going that route, but he'll only be dropping d4s with his 18-20 crit range(once he reaches Paragon that is). With my Student of Caiphon character in the [sblock] above, he's dropping d10s with Twin Strike with the same crit range. Admittedly, the rest of your class features and powers are kinda wasted with SoC, but still...

Rogue multiclass has much better synergy is the thing. Especially for pursuit avengers.

 

[Nifft]

Nifft, he also could have picked up Pact Initiate at an earlier level since he had 13 Cha through heroic.

Right! Now I see it. Thanks.

With my Student of Caiphon character in the [sblock] above, he's dropping d10s with Twin Strike with the same crit range. Admittedly, the rest of your class features and powers are kinda wasted with SoC, but still...

Another fun combo might be Half-Elf Bard with Twin Strike, who picks up Ranger multiclass (for oversized off-hand weapon), Warlock multiclass (for a somewhat more useful Caiphon PP), and Avenger multiclass (1/encounter but still quite good). He uses Combat Virtuoso to make Twin Strike's attacks key off of Charisma.

Cheers, -- N