Avenger Impressions

[Leatherhead]

I disagree. The avenger motivates enemies to stick together closely, yes. But that allows your party to capitalize on blast and bursts, which most classes have at least a few of at encounter level.

I do not see how this disagrees with my point of view.

This means any reasonable enemy will be forced to attack the Defender, and that permits the Defender to fulfill his designated role in the adventuring party instead of standing around feeling like a defective Striker.

Moreover, it is going to force the enemies to either hold a front-line formation around the two of you, or split up and let you use your Oath of Enmity double-roll to decimate them one at a time.

This does not work as well as it sounds. It causes the defender to use up an excessively dangerous amount of healing surges, and the powers that defenders get to protect end up being dead weight. Additionally, it isn't hard to hold a formation in a slightly cramped environment, such as a dungeon.

Now the point about a defective striker made me chuckle, because to me the avenger feels like a defective defender, who wants to be a controller, but doesn't realise he is supposed to be a striker.

 

[mlund]

This does not work as well as it sounds. It causes the defender to use up an excessively dangerous amount of healing surges,

Defenders come with more Healing Surges than any other role for a reason. They also tend to emphasize taking Constitution as a 2nd or 3rd Stat to help with this. On top of all that, they tend to have options for above-the-curve AC and/or wellsprings of Temporary HP to help them survive drawing a ton of fire.

Again, drawing a ton of fire is the Defender's primary responsibility in the party - not hitting things frequently for large amounts of damage. It is a big deviation from previous editions where Fighters and Paladins were characters you could count on for A-Ranked BAB, iterative attacks, and massive weapon damage.

and the powers that defenders get to protect end up being dead weight.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. When an ability that is supposed to keep an enemy from moving away or attacking others is so feared that the enemy doesn't attempt to move away or attack others it certainly is not dead weight. It may function as a Passive Feature instead of an Active Feature, but it still performs its function quite well

Additionally, it isn't hard to hold a formation in a slightly cramped environment, such as a dungeon.

Actually, it can be quite hard to force the enemy to hold position in an encounter without a natural bottle-neck - even in a dungeon. Additionally, 4E dungeons are typically a far cry from the old AD&D 30'x30' chamber encounters. Beyond that, proper dungeons seem to make up only a small fraction of the encounter areas I run across in campaigns or even RPGA events.

Now the point about a defective striker made me chuckle, because to me the avenger feels like a defective defender, who wants to be a controller, but doesn't realise he is supposed to be a striker.

Except for the whole part about how Defenders are basically defined as a role by powers that encourage enemies to swing at them while Avengers come with powers to discourage that exact behavior. Meanwhile Avengers lack much serious emphasis on area effect damage that would give them something in common with the Controller role ...

- Marty Lund

 

[Leatherhead]

Defenders come with more Healing Surges than any other role for a reason. They also tend to emphasize taking Constitution as a 2nd or 3rd Stat to help with this. On top of all that, they tend to have options for above-the-curve AC and/or wellsprings of Temporary HP to help them survive drawing a ton of fire.

They can still run out, even with more. It happens when they are focus fired, which will happen if no other target is available. No class, not even a battlerager fighter, can shoulder all the damage for a party by themselves. Even when they succeed in a battle, it just leads back to the five-minute workday that 4E is trying to desperately to avoid.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. When an ability that is supposed to keep an enemy from moving away or attacking others is so feared that the enemy doesn't attempt to move away or attack others it certainly is not dead weight. It may function as a Passive Feature instead of an Active Feature, but it still performs its function quite well

Parties want to kill things fast because it prevents a drain on party resources. Having the monsters attack someone other than the defender can make the encounter move faster, especially if that someone is an avenger. With the additional advantage of spreading out the damage so that the defender dosn't have to rest so often. Unfortunately, enemies are not going to attack the avenger because of the double whammy.

Except for the whole part about how Defenders are basically defined as a role by powers that encourage enemies to swing at them while Avengers come with powers to discourage that exact behavior. Meanwhile Avengers lack much serious emphasis on area effect damage that would give them something in common with the Controller role ...

So defenders want to get hit, and avengers want to get hit, but for different reasons. Making the avenger a dysfunctional defender because the monsters don't want to hit them. And there is more to control than area damage, such as moving enemies around on the battlefield, or preventing them from doing so.

 

[the Jester]

I am very stoked on the avenger. I can't wait to kill one of the pcs in my campaign so I can see one in play!*


*If the new character isn't an avenger, repeat.

 

[nightwyrm]

Regarding the whole avenger dueling a single monster thing. Sure they could duel, but nothing really prevents the rest of the party from pitching in. Avenger powers tend to chase away enemies other than their OoE target, but don't discourage their allies from attacking their OoE target. Heck, Divine Guidance is like an elven accuracy for the rest of the party.

 

[TarionzCousin]

I am very stoked on the avenger. I can't wait to kill one of the pcs in my campaign so I can see one in play!*


*If the new character isn't an avenger, repeat.

Hmmm... I like the way you think. Are you vying for the title of RBDM?

 

[Stalker0]

the Avenger is my favorite class upon my initial lookthrough. Don't forget that bonus damage isn't his only striker power, he crits a lot more often than other classes due to the oath.

One thing that others haven't mentioned is nearly every daily in his arsenal has an effect. Hit or Miss, this guys brings pain. I think WOTC has learned their lesson about dailies, more and more of them seem to have solid effects regardless of if you hit.

 

[RefinedBean]

I think WOTC has learned their lesson about dailies, more and more of them seem to have solid effects regardless of if you hit.

I'd definitely agree with this, having played both a Druid and Bard. Missing still sucks, but you don't feel like the whole thing was a waste.

I'm a big fan of that shift, too. People need to loosen up on their dailies!

 

[Byronic]

the Avenger is my favorite class upon my initial lookthrough. Don't forget that bonus damage isn't his only striker power, he crits a lot more often than other classes due to the oath.

Not quite sure about that. With the exception of Radiant Servant Avengers, Dagger Masters crit more. And the TWF Ranger seems to use Twin Strike so often that he crits just as much as the Avenger and finds it easier to get a higher crit range in Epic because he can pass the Strength requirement easier.

Still, perhaps Divine Power will give the Avenger something that will allow him to crit more often making them the highest crit class.

 

[Ulrik]

The Avenger is equal to somebody with the epic crit feats (or 0.25% behind) right out of the gate, without spending feats or pumping otherwise useless stats. I'd be careful giving him more crit. I'm already excited about jumping into the campaign with an Avenger wielding a +3 Vicious greataxe at lvl 11, 10% chance for max damage + 5d12 on all attacks

The twin strike example is faulty, as it's only on an at-will (and one 20 will only affect one hit anyway), while the Oath affects all at-wills, encounters and dailies.