Avenger Impressions

[Nymrohd]

The chance to roll a 20 on at least one of two rolls of a d20 is 0.1, so equal to the chance to roll a 19 or 20 on a roll of a d20. Using a weapon to give powers radiant so as to gain the benefit of Illuminating attacks from Radiant Servant will pump you up to a 0.2 critical strike chance (1:5!). This does feel OP for something you can gain at level 11, particularly with an execution axe.

Comparing Oath of Enmity to multiple attack powers like twin strike directly is faulty. Even discounting that one has potential broader use, each provides different benefits. Oath of Enmity will max out a single attack and cause critical strike damage once, but with a 2h weapon. Multiple attack powers can potentially cause multiple critical hits, thus dealing critical damage several times, but at the same time they use weapons with smaller hit dice. I'd think OoE provides greater gains on criticals than powers that allow two attacks with 1h weapons, but once you gain a broader crit range the scale most likely tips back to multiple attack powers because of the greater chance for multiple crits.

 

[nightwyrm]

Over at WotC CharOps board someone did a chart of the probabilities of rolling a X and above using 2d20s. Essentially, the probability of rolling a 20 is 9%, a 19 or higher is 19%, and a 18 or higher is about 28%.

 

[Obryn]

Over at WotC CharOps board someone did a chart of the probabilities of rolling a X and above using 2d20s. Essentially, the probability of rolling a 20 is 9%, a 19 or higher is 19%, and a 18 or higher is about 28%.

I'm pretty sure this was considered with the class design. In my brief overview, they seem to get fewer [W]'s than most classes, so even though crits will be more common, they don't get enormous. There are some exceptions, but by and large, they do low damage for strikers. Reliable, but low.

Still, it will mean there's finally a use for all those "On crit..." feats.

-O

 

[Ulrik]

Over at WotC CharOps board someone did a chart of the probabilities of rolling a X and above using 2d20s. Essentially, the probability of rolling a 20 is 9%, a 19 or higher is 19%, and a 18 or higher is about 28%.

The chance of not rolling a 20 on at least one of the two dice is 361 out of 400, making the crit chance 39 out of 400 or 9.75%.

 

[nightwyrm]

The chance of not rolling a 20 on at least one of the two dice is 361 out of 400, making the crit chance 39 out of 400 or 9.75%.

Yes, well, I just rounded down coz it makes for lazier typing (but I guess not since now I'm typing all this up).


To Obryn

Yes, I'm sure it's completely intentional and the designers meant for it to happen. I'm not thinking it's OP. I'm just mentioning the CharOp just in case someone is curious and wants to go take a look at all the probabilities.

 

[Ulrik]

Yes, well, I just rounded down coz it makes for lazier typing (but I guess not since now I'm typing all this up).

L2round properly, it rounds to 10%

More on topic, I've now skimmed the entire book, my decision to play an Avenger is looking less firm, with all the cool primal classes in there (oddly enough the other classes just don't grab me as much). But an Unveiled Visage, serving the Raven Queen and charging in with big raven wings, is just too cool.

I agree with the impression that an Avenger seem to do less damage per hit than a ranger or a rogue, unless the rogue doesn't get CA. I wonder if it's easier for the Avenger to trigger the Oath than it is for the rogue to get CA? I would think it is, but I'd have to see it in play to know for sure.

Is there a ruling about teleporting enemies into dangerous terrain/over cliffs? If that's allowed some of those Avenger powers can be nasty.

 

[mlund]

I agree with the impression that an Avenger seem to do less damage per hit than a ranger or a rogue, unless the rogue doesn't get CA. I wonder if it's easier for the Avenger to trigger the Oath than it is for the rogue to get CA? I would think it is, but I'd have to see it in play to know for sure.

Well, the Avenger can deal a hefty amount of pain with a two-handed weapon - even if the enemies don't trigger his Retribution or Pursuit damage bonuses. He can also pass the Rogue and the Ranger in AC just by taking Leather Armor Proficiency.

I'm pretty happy with my Avenger of Moradin (Retribution) at 2nd level with just Weapon Expertise (Hammers), and Dwarven Weapon Training. Whirlwind Charge gives you 2[w] and it isn't hard to line up a charge that gives you two attack rolls. The damage output from a two-handed superior hammer is kind of a big deal.

I don't think I'm nearly as excited about the Pursuit version of the Avenger, though.

- Marty Lund

 

[Akaiku]

If you are JUST going for crit range, you can pair a brilliant energy or sunblade with oh, say disciple of caiphon. 18-20 crit on fear or radiant powers? Sadly, it doesn't synergize with the stat requirements decently, so you'd just be getting the passives. Though, isn't only one of the powers you get from it an attack?

 

[ThirdWizard]

After debating this with a friend of mine, we've concluded while they aren't weaker than other strikers, they aren't as exciting to play. They hit consistently, have effects on their powers, and are solidly built. However, they don't have really big, stand out, look at that! powers.

Kug: We no can dunk, but good fundamentals.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Here's the probabilities for rolling criticals with 2 d20 rolls:
20: .05 + .05 - (.05*.05 = .025) = .975 = 9.75%
19-20: .1 + .1 - (.1*.1 = .01) = .19 = 19%
18-20: .15 + .15 - (.15*.15 = .0225) = .2775 = 27.75%