D&D 5E Avenger in 4th to 5th

I've been rethinking this, and upon further consideration, I'm not convinced I'd give the avenger any sort of "add another ability score to AC" ability at all.

The avenger already focuses on Dex where the paladin focuses on Strength. That means that, with stat bumps to a single stat, both his offense and defense are going to rise fast. Assuming a "normal" paladin wears heavy armor, improving it as he gains levels and can afford better--and that an avenger wears studded leather, and bumps his Dex up as he goes--the result is going to be a relatively even AC. Oh, the paladin may be able to afford his plate a little bit before the avenger can get his Dex all the way to 20, but it'll only be by a few levels. Once they hit 8th, the studded leather-wearing avenger and the plate-clad paladin only have a 1 point AC difference. And the avenger's got a better initiative modifier and is just as good at ranged weapons as he is at melee.

Personally I would be very hesitant to allow anyone to use 2h weapons with Dex. It's the best stat as is. Give the Str characters something to be unique.

Under most circumstances, I'd agree with you. But the use of such weapons was a pretty iconic aspect of the class in its prior incarnation. Allowing the avenger the use of one or two such weapons, but not granting him a Charisma-based bonus to AC, as I'd originally done, may not seem like much of a change, but I think it's actually the most balanced trade-off we've yet discussed in this thread.

(That said, I wouldn't be opposed to a caveat stating that the Great Weapon Master feat cannot be applied when the avenger is using Dex, since it's pretty clearly implied to rely on the wielder's Strength. Between that, and the fact that your traditional Strength fighters can take the Great Weapon Fighting combat style, I think the big burly guys still have some good stuff to call their own.)
 

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The DEX-based vengeance paladin wears light armor. So did the 4e avenger. I don't see what the problem is.

Granting an extra bonus on top of that would be a bad idea in 5e.
 
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If the Avenger loses all armor proficiency, his defensive ability, which is going to replace Heavy Armor and Shield Proficiency which can grant a 20 AC, has got to be significant.

Assuming a starting score of 16 in Dex and Cha, he'll need to be 16th level to have the same AC. The standard paladin is going to be getting feats with all those ASI that the Avenger is using.

If one were to allow the Avenger to use light armor, a compromise might be for his WIS to work for the defensive ability.
 

I never assumed the avenger would lose all armor proficiency; just heavy and medium.
[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION], again, I'd normally agree. But the avenger with the two-handed sword was a pretty iconic image. I'd like to find a way to let them keep that without making them better than other paladins. Hence the idea of offering to let them choose two big weapons to use with Dex, in place of the paladin's normal fighting style.
 

I never assumed the avenger would lose all armor proficiency; just heavy and medium.

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION], again, I'd normally agree. But the avenger with the two-handed sword was a pretty iconic image. I'd like to find a way to let them keep that without making them better than other paladins. Hence the idea of offering to let them choose two big weapons to use with Dex, in place of the paladin's normal fighting style.

Yeah, a Dex-based, light armor-wearing character is, in theory, self-balanced against a character in heavy armor + shield (whatever points of AC they lose are compensated with the better ranged capabilities, initiative, stealth and Dex save). If the character instead wants *no* armor, then I'd give it a flat +2 to AC while not wearing armor nor using a shield. Or, as I mentioned abovethread, point the character to the Magic Initiate feat (where Mage Armor lives happily).

As for the Dex-based big sword, I'm of two minds. You could make up a new, Paladin-only Fighting Style (call it "Court Dueling") allowing to use Dex for attacks using a chosen two-handed weapon. Or you could just make up a new weapon (say, the Courtblade of 3.5e fame) that is 1d10 dmg, Two-Handed and Finesse. It's only 1 point of dmg over a rapier's average, so it's not likely to break the game.
 


I've been rethinking this, and upon further consideration, I'm not convinced I'd give the avenger any sort of "add another ability score to AC" ability at all.

The avenger already focuses on Dex where the paladin focuses on Strength....



...Under most circumstances, I'd agree with you. But the use of such weapons was a pretty iconic aspect of the class in its prior incarnation.

Is it a given that avengers have to use DEX? What about CHA and DEX to AC and then STR to heavy weapons as normal?
 

Ah, I just figured the goal was to recreate the Avenger as closely as possible, which would mean no armor.

Huh. I didn't remember that they were totally armor-free. I could've sworn they had light armor.

Ah, well. My memory ain't what it used to be. Or so I'm told; who remembers? :p

Is it a given that avengers have to use DEX? What about CHA and DEX to AC and then STR to heavy weapons as normal?

That gets into a level of MAD that other paladins needn't deal with, though, and also encourages them to stay away from the large weapon archetype.
 



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