D&D 5E Avoidance to replace HP?

For the sake of brainstorming ...

I feel the name ‘hit’ points works well enough. It abstracts the number of ‘hits’ that are necessary before finally bypassing the defenses of the target.

Which makes me think, there can four defenses. Each one can be bypassed separately.

Here ‘toughness’ is understood as ‘natural armor’, the ability to shake off a solid hit. Artificial armor, in this sense, like chain armor, is actually a bonus to toughness. Size matters. Big beefy targets are inherently tougher than little fragile targets. While it is possible for a small target to punch above their weightclass, they are the special exception that proves the rule of how much the weightclass matters in a real fight. Normally, Size and toughness correlate. For nonmagical creatures, size is in itself a kind of natural armor, that is its own resilience to impact.

Then ‘gymnastics’ is the ability to evade the hit entirely − the reflexes, speed, and mobility, to get out of the way. (The encumbrance of artificial armor might add a bonus to toughness, but limit the effectiveness of gymnastics.)

‘Perceptiveness’ is the ability to anticipate the attack ahead of time − whether by analysis and experience, or intuition and gut instincts, or miraculous fateful luck. Perceptiveness relates to initiative and avoiding surprises, and planning an effective defense accordingly. Perceptiveness is all about tactics.

The last category is the social factor. It includes sheer willpower, and the ability to intimidate and psyche out an opponent. We see this in nature, for example, when a fiercely brave, individual, hyena stares down and scares away a lion.



These four combat factors correspond to the four D&D defenses: fortitude, reflex, perception, and will.

These four defenses correlate to the foursome arrangement of ability scores.

Strength-Constitution (fortitude)
Dexterity-Athletics (reflex)
Intelligence-Perception (perception)
Charisma-Wisdom (will)



What is novel here in this post is ...

Strength-Constitution (fortitude) is the actual ‘natural armor’, in other words, the AC. The ability to make hits less significant. So punching a Tiny animal is very different from punching a Huge elephant. Effectively − and relatively − the elephant has a higher natural armor than the tiny animal.



So, there are four kinds of defenses.

• The ‘fortitude defense’ − essentially serving as the armor class.
• The ‘reflex defense’ − dodge, leap out of the way
• The ‘perception defense’ − negating a surprise and gaining initiative to respond ahead of time
• The ‘will defense’ − the psychological factor of any combat − morale and intimidation



With an eye on 4e, it is better to treat all four defenses in the same way, mathematically and mechanically. In other words, all four are a DC target number that the attack must roll higher than to hit, or oppositely all four are saves, being a bonus that the defender rolls to avoid being hit. Either way, the defenses are a bonus number. If active, the defender adds a d20, and if passive, the defender adds a base +10.



Finally, there are four defenses. And there only needs to be one abstract hit point pool. The hit point pool is the sum of all hit point factors: endurance, dodging, anticipation, morale.

Bypassing any of the four defenses can deplete the hit points.

The reason is, in a real fight, the defenses cant really be separate from each other. If the target has formidable morale, then it might keep on dodging out of the way, a second wind from inner strength. This is the proverbial ‘300’ Spartans. And so on. A physically tough target can still press on, even if the will to survive runs out. So the hit points is a fungible and indivisible abstraction of hit points.

But the methods of attack, very much have a specific defense to bypass.
 
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Now you're talking about a hybrid model. This thread is about removing the physical component, and turning it into avoidance; in which case, you aren't necessarily bloodied at any point.

Healing potions can't cure the avoidance component of any model that uses them. Avoidance points aren't visible to the characters, the way that meat damage is; and that's a big problem, if much of the game is devoted toward managing those points.

Disagree. There are multiple signs off will to live, stamina and even luck running out. I don't think it's hard to spot those things happening. I think it is hard to find something that a character could do that makes sense to restore all of them.
 

Doesn't this effectively make the PCs even harder to kill? It seems like 5e is already slanted to very few PC deaths, or near deaths (though I've only played around 8 times so far.....).

I also guess I'm not sure how different it is, really, than "all hit points above 1 are really about avoiding real damage, or getting tired in battle, or whatever".

I'm intrigued by the narrative possibilities.....but would you also change the rules for monsters?

5E is pretty survivable once you get to 3-5th levels. After that, PC death is very rare IME.

I am not sure how this will work to be honest, it is totally still being thought out even as a viable concept and I am sure it will change many times over if I even decide to pursue it.

It isn't so much about the difference between this idea and HP. I was explaining the concept to a co-worker today and he was under the impression that you still had HP and subtracted it, this simple added a narrative mechanic for players to describe how those HP are used up for the damage taken. I explained how that wasn't the idea (well, it is sort of) but HP won't exist anymore.

When all your avoidance points are used up, the next attack that succeeds cannot be avoided and you are down, unconscious, and dying in all likelihood.

I apologize for any confusion (to everyone LOL!) but this is still being thought out...
 

The ability foursome is a better system.

(Heh, and the sixsome is a terrible system.)

We know, we know, I can't even begin to count how many times you've brought it up. :)

Let's just say your idea is certainly viable, but not a system I would want to play personally. I like more ability scores and distinction, not less. Anyway, on to your other post...
 

For the sake of brainstorming ...

I feel the name ‘hit’ points works well enough. It abstracts the number of ‘hits’ that are necessary before finally bypassing the defenses of the target.

Which makes me think, there can four defenses. Each one can be bypassed separately.

Here ‘toughness’ is understood as ‘natural armor’, the ability to shake off a solid hit. Artificial armor, in this sense, like chain armor, is actually a bonus to toughness. Size matters. Big beefy targets are inherently tougher than little fragile targets. While it is possible for a small target to punch above their weightclass, they are the special exception that proves the rule of how much the weightclass matters in a real fight. Normally, Size and toughness correlate. For nonmagical creatures, size is in itself a kind of natural armor, that is its own resilience to impact.

Then ‘gymnastics’ is the ability to evade the hit entirely − the reflexes, speed, and mobility, to get out of the way. (The encumbrance of artificial armor might add a bonus to toughness, but limit the effectiveness of gymnastics.)

‘Perceptiveness’ is the ability to anticipate the attack ahead of time − whether by analysis and experience, or intuition and gut instincts, or miraculous fateful luck. Perceptiveness relates to initiative and avoiding surprises, and planning an effective defense accordingly. Perceptiveness is all about tactics.

The last category is the social factor. It includes sheer willpower, and the ability to intimidate and psyche out an opponent. We see this in nature, for example, when a fiercely brave, individual, hyena stares down and scares away a lion.



These four combat factors correspond to the four D&D defenses: fortitude, reflex, perception, and will.

These four defenses correlate to the foursome arrangement of ability scores.

Strength-Constitution (fortitude)
Dexterity-Athletics (reflex)
Intelligence-Perception (perception)
Charisma-Wisdom (will)



What is novel here in this post is ...

Strength-Constitution (fortitude) is the actual ‘natural armor’, in other words, the AC. The ability to make hits less significant. So punching a Tiny animal is very different from punching a Huge elephant. Effectively − and relatively − the elephant has a higher natural armor than the tiny animal.



So, there are four kinds of defenses.

• The ‘fortitude defense’ − essentially serving as the armor class.
• The ‘reflex defense’ − dodge, leap out of the way
• The ‘perception defense’ − negating a surprise and gaining initiative to respond ahead of time
• The ‘will defense’ − the psychological factor of any combat − morale and intimidation



With an eye on 4e, it is better to treat all four defenses in the same way, mathematically and mechanically. In other words, all four are a DC target number that the attack must roll higher than to hit, or oppositely all four are saves, being a bonus that the defender rolls to avoid being hit. Either way, the defenses are a bonus number. If active, the defender adds a d20, and if passive, the defender adds a base +10.



Finally, there are four defenses. And there only needs to be one abstract hit point pool. The hit point pool is the sum of all hit point factors: endurance, dodging, anticipation, morale.

Bypassing any of the four defenses can deplete the hit points.

The reason is, in a real fight, the defenses cant really be separate from each other. If the target has formidable morale, then it might keep on dodging out of the way, a second wind from inner strength. This is the proverbial ‘300’ Spartans. And so on. A physically tough target can still press on, even if the will to survive runs out. So the hit points is a fungible and indivisible abstraction of hit points.

But the methods of attack, very much have a specific defense to bypass.
OOORRRRRR not...

Well, that is a lot of brainstorming and not at all in the direction I am planning to go really. So, for the sake of not derailing the thread, please take any discussion on your concept to a new thread and thank you!

(Nothing wrong with the ideas, mind you, just not for what I am working on.)
 

We know, we know, I can't even begin to count how many times you've brought it up. :)

Let's just say your idea is certainly viable, but not a system I would want to play personally. I like more ability scores and distinction, not less. Anyway, on to your other post...

Personally I'd just do away with ability scores. All class based abilities function as the class dictates. Possibly give a few decision points for a player to specialize in certain aspects of the class.

I'd turn skills into abstract mechanc that are a combination of natural aptitude and training.
 

Personally I'd just do away with ability scores. All class based abilities function as the class dictates. Possibly give a few decision points for a player to specialize in certain aspects of the class.

I'd turn skills into abstract mechanc that are a combination of natural aptitude and training.
Boy that is dramatic sounds like Fudge/Fate they may keep the ability scores for raw use if I recall correctly but nothing else is modified by them. Its a very flexible core game so what those attributes might be shrug.
 

Boy that is dramatic sounds like Fudge/Fate they may keep the ability scores for raw use if I recall correctly but nothing else is modified by them. Its a very flexible core game so what those attributes might be shrug.

Not really familiar with those systems other than what's been told to me of them here.

Really though, everything an attribute does for a class can be baked into the class itself with action decision points that differentiate the choices more than the minor amount an attribute difference does. A system like this would open the door up for intelligent fighters and strong wizards - while still being able to keep the game roughly balanced.

The only exception left is skills and if you just redefine the skill to include aptitude then you've got it. There's no reason that every persuasive character must also be nearly as good at deception. There's no reason a character with knowledge about nature naturally also knows about history. Etc.
 

Not really familiar with those systems other than what's been told to me of them here.

Really though, everything an attribute does for a class can be baked into the class itself with action decision points that differentiate the choices more than the minor amount an attribute difference does. A system like this would open the door up for intelligent fighters and strong wizards.

The only exception left is skills and if you just redefine the skill to include aptitude then you've got it. There's no reason that every persuasive character must also be nearly as good at deception. There's no reason a character with knowledge about nature naturally also knows about history. Etc.
This is not a part that is often discussed about Fate... its usually other elements like aspects or fate points and similar which if you simplify character creation enough in D&D those could probably be stolen without much adjustment.

where as this is pretty dramatic distinction.

But yes your being awesome in Local History doesn't make you awesome in investigation and with the broad strokes in the game is about it makes enough sense. Your awesomeness at surgical performance does not have an impact on lock picking.
 

Not really familiar with those systems other than what's been told to me of them here.

Really though, everything an attribute does for a class can be baked into the class itself with action decision points that differentiate the choices more than the minor amount an attribute difference does. A system like this would open the door up for intelligent fighters and strong wizards - while still being able to keep the game roughly balanced.

The only exception left is skills and if you just redefine the skill to include aptitude then you've got it. There's no reason that every persuasive character must also be nearly as good at deception. There's no reason a character with knowledge about nature naturally also knows about history. Etc.

Yep, designed properly a game can be made and played without ability scores.
 

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