AVP Trailer

[Desdichado]

KM, I'm not sure where your stuck in this comic book/novel continuity. This is a different industry entirely. The comics and novels were licensed, but that doesn't mean any later creative team has to be bound to them. You're quoting things from the novels about treaties and noble predators, and I'm sorry, but I just have to ask what the hell you're talking about. You say the predators aren't monsters, but I have two DVDs in my cabinet downstairs that say otherwise, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only canon.

Also, even if that continuity did mean anything, which it doesn't, it wouldn't apply to this movie. This movie takes place in the present day. An interesting tidbit from the movie description on the official site; the organization is funded by billionaire Mr. Weyland... that's a nice touch.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

KM, I'm not sure where your stuck in this comic book/novel continuity. This is a different industry entirely. The comics and novels were licensed, but that doesn't mean any later creative team has to be bound to them. You're quoting things from the novels about treaties and noble predators, and I'm sorry, but I just have to ask what the hell you're talking about. You say the predators aren't monsters, but I have two DVDs in my cabinet downstairs that say otherwise, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only canon.

Also, even if that continuity did mean anything, which it doesn't, it wouldn't apply to this movie. This movie takes place in the present day. An interesting tidbit from the movie description on the official site; the organization is funded by billionaire Mr. Weyland... that's a nice touch.

OK, and I agree with your point. Although then you also must think that spiderman, hulk, superman and other books to movies can be done whatever they want with, with no thought of the fans. I am sorry, but I see that as a little unfounded. I have already stated that if this is the near future it works. Oh, and btw, go back and rewatch the second predator movie, the predator is not depicted as a monster towards the end but as a race of hunters who know what honor and nobility are. The one who came to earth that time was beat and the others rewarded LGJ with a pistol and promised to leave earth alone. You talk about licensing and that is important. The novels and the comics are backed by the creators of both products and have stated that that is what they consider cannon, if you do not agree with that, ok, but they are the creators and it is *their* choice since they own it.

Do I think they have to go with continuity, no, but expect fans of the series to redicule it some just as they have with batman forever, catwoman, daredevil, xmen, and the first punisher. If you are going to ignore some of the fans, which is what it sounds like you are stating (fans don't matter, accepted cannon doesn't matter, this is a movie not a book) then expect some of the fans to be a little unhappy. That is all I am getting at. As a fan of the cannon (cannon, btw, means what the *creators* deem standard and within the storyline) some of the things they are doing in this version bothers me a bit, just as some of the stuff they did in alien 4 bothered some people who have followed the authors for a long time. Your idea sounds like justification for them to make the new green lantern movie. Who cares if Jack Black (whom I love) doesn't fit any of the roles of green latern and the story completely goes against the timeline, it's a movie and green latern is a book and never the two shall meet.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

KM, I'm not sure where your stuck in this comic book/novel continuity. This is a different industry entirely. The comics and novels were licensed, but that doesn't mean any later creative team has to be bound to them. You're quoting things from the novels about treaties and noble predators, and I'm sorry, but I just have to ask what the hell you're talking about. You say the predators aren't monsters, but I have two DVDs in my cabinet downstairs that say otherwise, and as far as I'm concerned, that's the only canon.

Also, even if that continuity did mean anything, which it doesn't, it wouldn't apply to this movie. This movie takes place in the present day. An interesting tidbit from the movie description on the official site; the organization is funded by billionaire Mr. Weyland... that's a nice touch.

Also, just a bit of info, read the original script for this movie and see what it was originally meant to be before the producers and whatnot got their gloves into. Maybe you are one of those people who say the script doesn't matter either, I don't know, but from experience I can say the original script to this was very very good and actually did make some references to the novel series to flush out the society and costuming of the predators since they needed more than one this time through and wanted to be accurate to the established cannon. I've been following the developement of this movie for quite some time and was pretty sad when they decided to go a completely different direction (mainly because I really liked the actress they had slated to play the mayan princess).

 

[Desdichado]

You keep mentioning that the makers of the Hulk, Spiderman, X-Men, Batman, etc. don't have to follow the continuity, but I have to point out that they don't exactly; there's a lot of differences on those movies and the comics they're based on.

But that's not really the point; the Predator and Alien properties were movies first. It seems to me that it's the novels that have taken some pretty piss-poor liberties with the concepts if the predators are a "noble species" who are now making treaties with humans. That's not at all how they were portrayed in the movies. And the scene at the end of Predator 2 doesn't jive at all with your implication that they only hunted humans because they didn't realize we were intelligent.

 

[Desdichado]

What in the wide, wide world of sports is 'Butt Rock?'
Some sort of porn term?

I honestly don't know, but there was a thread a few weeks ago moaning about one of the Internet exclusive trailers and how it featured "butt rock." It just sounded like a lot of heavy electric guitars to me.

But other than that thread, I've never heard the term butt rock. It generated a lot of confusion, and kinda went into a tangent about what was heavy metal and what wasn't, and the virtue of 80s big hair bands like Def Leppard and stuff like that. Actually, the tangent was much more interesting than the discussion.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

You keep mentioning that the makers of the Hulk, Spiderman, X-Men, Batman, etc. don't have to follow the continuity, but I have to point out that they don't exactly; there's a lot of differences on those movies and the comics they're based on.

But that's not really the point; the Predator and Alien properties were movies first. It seems to me that it's the novels that have taken some pretty piss-poor liberties with the concepts if the predators are a "noble species" who are now making treaties with humans. That's not at all how they were portrayed in the movies. And the scene at the end of Predator 2 doesn't jive at all with your implication that they only hunted humans because they didn't realize we were intelligent.

Actually it does, but that is another arguement. The movies were scripts first, if you want to get technical and so were a type of novel. Sorry, but you seme to be using nitpicking when you want to and not at other times. And the creators of those original scripts and movies went on to lay the foundation of the novels. You seem to think that aliens and predator were just pulled out of someone's but and filmed without any writing going into them. Also, read the script for predator 2, have you? The original one? Reread that scene at the end.

I am not sure what your point is here, I have already said the movie, as commented on by someone else, sounds interesting if it is near future. You seem to think that movie makers have no reason to respect what came before them. That's like syaing it's ok to make romeo and juliet into a slasher horror film. It was a play first (ie script) and so it doesn't matter what you do with it. IF that is how you feel ok, just unterstand that not everyone is like that. You will also see a lot of griping aboutt he parts of superhero movies that aren't cannon. Am I saying they have to follow established story arcs? No, of course not, just please don't talk down to me like it isn't understandable how a lot of us are a bit unhappy when they take a well established story arc and mess with it. Also, read what the foundation of the whole avp started as. It was *inspired* by the novels, *NOT* the movies. Just as the shot of the alien in the second predator came about because ofa short story written about an alien fighting a predator. You act like the movies, comics and novels are all seperate but in this case, especially this case, that just isn't so. They have always been interwoven and worked together ever since the novilization fo the second movie came out.

 

[Desdichado]

Actually it does, but that is another arguement. The movies were scripts first, if you want to get technical and so were a type of novel. Sorry, but you seme to be using nitpicking when you want to and not at other times. And the creators of those original scripts and movies went on to lay the foundation of the novels. You seem to think that aliens and predator were just pulled out of someone's but and filmed without any writing going into them. Also, read the script for predator 2, have you? The original one? Reread that scene at the end.

A script is not a kind of novel. And why would I care about original screenplays anyway? Y'know, the ones the creators scrapped? Surely, you're not trying to tell me you believe that to be canonical? What else has to be canonical by your account? That predators fought Batman? That they fought robot fighter Magnus in a completely alternate future from the one in the AVP novels and comic books? Did they also have a three way catfight between aliens, predators and terminators just because a comic book miniseries did that? Dark Horse and Spectra bought a license to use the Predator and Aliens characters and properties for novels and comics, and that's exactly what they did, but that hardly means that the creators of the movies are bound to what they did. Look at the Star Wars novels; with each new movie Lucas makes, he invalidates the premise of dozens of books. That's just the way licensing works.

I am not sure what your point is here, I have already said the movie, as commented on by someone else, sounds interesting if it is near future. You seem to think that movie makers have no reason to respect what came before them. That's like syaing it's ok to make romeo and juliet into a slasher horror film. It was a play first (ie script) and so it doesn't matter what you do with it. IF that is how you feel ok, just unterstand that not everyone is like that. You will also see a lot of griping aboutt he parts of superhero movies that aren't cannon. Am I saying they have to follow established story arcs? No, of course not, just please don't talk down to me like it isn't understandable how a lot of us are a bit unhappy when they take a well established story arc and mess with it. Also, read what the foundation of the whole avp started as. It was *inspired* by the novels, *NOT* the movies. Just as the shot of the alien in the second predator came about because ofa short story written about an alien fighting a predator. You act like the movies, comics and novels are all seperate but in this case, especially this case, that just isn't so. They have always been interwoven and worked together ever since the novilization fo the second movie came out.

You seem to be too emotionally invested in this issue to pay attention to what I'm saying, so you make hyperbolic straw man mischaracterizations of what I'm saying. You're also not understanding the way the creative world works, I don't think. You make several statements that are just plain wrong, or naive. You think the creators of the movies were involved in the novels and comic books, and I think that's a big load of BS. I know for a fact that Ridley Scott, who created Alien wasn't even involved in Aliens, Alien3 or Alien Resurrection much less a bunch of licensed novels or comic books. What happened is Dark Horse and Spectra bought the licenses, and then went and did their own thing, which the movie creators have no reason whatsoever to follow.

And you seem to be pretty bitter for some reason against the creators of the movie because they didn't follow the vision of a bunch of hack authors (emphasis on hack) of some licensed novels and comic books. You also seem to think the original alien and predator creators were involved in those books and novels which is not true. Ironically enough, John and Jim Thomas, the original creators of the Predator movie screenplay, are credited in the AVP movie (although not in the novels).

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

A script is not a kind of novel. And why would I care about original screenplays anyway? Y'know, the ones the creators scrapped? Surely, you're not trying to tell me you believe that to be canonical? What else has to be canonical by your account? That predators fought Batman? That they fought robot fighter Magnus in a completely alternate future from the one in the AVP novels and comic books? Did they also have a three way catfight between aliens, predators and terminators just because a comic book miniseries did that? Dark Horse bought a license to use the Predator and Aliens characters and properties for novels and comics, and that's exactly what they did, but that hardly means that the creators of the movies are bound to what they did. Look at the Star Wars novels; with each new movie Lucas makes, he invalidates the premise of dozens of books. That's just the way licensing works.

Number one, I didn't say they had to do it fact you seem to have ignored a lot of my comments so you can turn around and attack be personally, which I have yet to do with you. I said they in no way have to. All I said was that it is understandable (note the word there) that some fans (and a lot of them if you read the movie boards around the web) are a little *let down* (note the words again) that they did not stick with the original screenplay. Also, the original screenplay was not a hack job, you seem to be of the impression that producers and directors scrap screenplays only because they are hackjobs. That is not even remotely the case. The scrap screenplays due to budgit constraints, actor constraints, technology gaps, cencorship, and a host of other reasons. If you label every author that has had his screenplay dropped a hack then every writer in hollywood presetn and past have been hacks. They have *all* had at least one screenplay dropped. If you do not believe thsi then find a single example of a writier in hollywood who has never had something dropped.

You seem to be too emotionally invested in this issue to pay attention to what I'm saying, so you make hyperbolic straw man mischaracterizations of what I'm saying. You're also not understanding the way the creative world works, I don't think. You make several statements that are just plain wrong, or naive. You think the creators of the movies were involved in the novels and comic books, and I think that's a big load of BS. I know for a fact that Ridley Scott, who created Alien wasn't even involved in Aliens, Alien3 or Alien Resurrection much less a bunch of licensed novels or comic books. What happened is Dark Horse bought the licenses, and then went and did their own thing, which the movie creators have no reason whatsoever to follow.

Also note here that I did not say scott, I specifically pointed out aliens. Alien, and I have admitted this a number of times, is an esception to my logic here and I grant it that and I didn't spend terribly much time trying to justify that part. Look up the screenwriter for aliens and alien3. Look at their interviews, read what they say. Read their comments on the novels. They have given much praise and have consulted almost all of the novelists on what to do. You say I am too emotionally attached, but to me it seems you are. You tend to call the authors of these novels hack, even though some fo them are extremely well known. You acuse me of throwing up straw men, which I know the meaning of very well, since I was a perfect student in logic class. While I may have used one, you seem to insinuate that I do out of emotional attachment, when it could be that I may not agree that it is a strawman. It is always safer not to attack someone first off the bat. I have yet to insult you or your beliefs. I have merely pointed out that I don't agree with thema nd there is a huge difference, one you don't seem to understand.

And you seem to be pretty bitter for some reason against the creators of the movie because they didn't follow the vision of a bunch of hack authors of some licensed novels and comic books. You also seem to think the original alien and predator creators were involved in those books and novels which is not true. Ironically enough, John and Jim Thomas, the original creators of the Predator movie screenplay, are credited in the AVP movie (although not in the novels).

Again with the insulting the authors. I'm not bitter at all, I have stated multiple times now that I think this movie could be good. You simply choose to ignore those comments and persist in this bit about original intent. I liked what I saw. All I ever said was that I was leary of it turning into a jason vs freddy kind of thing, which I think is a well founded fear considering the director and the previews so far. I will also add that it is a fear expressed by a lot of people, just take a look at aicn, hype, ign and some of the other boards arounds. Also, whereas the original predator creator wasn't part of the novels (although John and Jim have made dozens of interviews praising them and they both love the dark horse stuff, and it was their idea that the two should meet at some point), the second movie was actually in production alonside the movie adaptation. The adaptation did a lot the movie couldn't because of budget constraints. I read more than one interview when the comic came out with the creative team involved with the movie and they did a lot of work *together* to make sure both looked the same. That group of people have since been approached by other authors and have helped.. In fact, and here I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure that one of the people involved in the second movie also wrote at least one of the homeworld or genocide books.

I am not sure why you insist in trying to convince that your view is the only one. I have admitted that we are both just expressing our beliefs and opinions and neither of us is nec right or wrong here. I don't liekt hat you just blanketly insult all the authors of the books and the comics as hacks without a second thought, because that is unfair to them, but your opinion and so you are welcome to it. Just please, don't insult me when I have yet to personally attack you. Nowhere have you shown exactly what strawmen I used, just thrown the words out there randomly. If I have taken something you said wrong, then tell me specifics, and clearly, instead of placing them within paragraph long insults to people you don't even know.

I am not sure where we got off on the wrong foot here, I usually agree with you and have always had respect for you. Since it is obvious that we can't discuss this topic like two adults I think we should just agree to disagree and get back tot eh actual *point* of this thread. Which was our thought on the movie and not the philosophy surrounding it. I respect you and hope that you haven't taken any of this discussion personal as I am trying not to myself. Hope to debate with you more on other things (like world domination and dungeoncraft) that we can approach as adults and not get carried away like we did here.

Now saying that: I think the movie can be really good and am looking forward to it. From what I saw in the trailer and read it looks like they didn't skimp on the budget which is good to see. It also looks like they have kept a lot of teh original props just advanced the perido which is also good so we can have gunfights. Let's face it, guns versus aliens are a lot more exciting than obsidian swords which is what the aztecs would have been limited too, lol.

 

[Desdichado]

I think we got off on the wrong foot when you started interpreting things I was saying as personal attacks and insults. If you reread my statements, I've made neither, I've merely stated my opinion, backed up by a little bit of research.

Although I still stand by my assessment of most of the novels as the works of hack authors. Not that I've read all of them, by any means, but I read the first three or four of the alien movies with Bille and Willis, or whatever the character's names were, and I've read a few of the Predator novels, including the movie adaptations. In fact, I still have one kicking around in a box in my basement; I just saw Concrete Jungle down there a few weeks ago while I was looking for something else.

Without fail, all of the ones I've read have been out and out hack jobs of novels. They're formulaic, with weakly developed characters and motivations, and either bland plots, or worse, plots that are completely inconsistent with the way things would work if the authors were actually paying attention to the movies. They're like game fiction; they may be somewhat entertaining, but they are the very definition of hack. I'm not as familiar with the Dark Horse comics, but I'm not a huge fan of what they've done with very hit and miss Star Wars material, so I'm not confident they have done anything great with Aliens or Predator either. Some of the Star Wars stuff is great -- the Darth Maul trade paperback where he takes down the Dark Sun crime syndicate is absolutely brilliant, while all the Sith Wars stuff doesn't even feel like it has anything in common with Star Wars at all with the exception of a handfull of proper nouns.

I did misinterpret you, though -- I had thought you were bemoaning the AVP script as not looking very good at all. I certainly can understand that fans would have wanted or expected something, and then not gotten it; my own wants and expectations of the Prequel Trilogy to Star Wars has been sorely let down, for example.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

I think we got off on the wrong foot when you started interpreting things I was saying as personal attacks and insults. If you reread my statements, I've made neither, I've merely stated my opinion, backed up by a little bit of research.

Although I still stand by my assessment of most of the novels as the works of hack authors. Not that I've read all of them, by any means, but I read the first three or four of the alien movies with Bille and Willis, or whatever the character's names were, and I've read a few of the Predator novels, including the movie adaptations. In fact, I still have one kicking around in a box in my basement; I just saw Concrete Jungle down there a few weeks ago while I was looking for something else.

Without fail, all of the ones I've read have been out and out hack jobs of novels. They're formulaic, with weakly developed characters and motivations, and either bland plots, or worse, plots that are completely inconsistent with the way things would work if the authors were actually paying attention to the movies. They're like game fiction; they may be somewhat entertaining, but they are the very definition of hack. I'm not as familiar with the Dark Horse comics, but I'm not a huge fan of what they've done with very hit and miss Star Wars material, so I'm not confident they have done anything great with Aliens or Predator either. Some of the Star Wars stuff is great -- the Darth Maul trade paperback where he takes down the Dark Sun crime syndicate is absolutely brilliant, while all the Sith Wars stuff doesn't even feel like it has anything in common with Star Wars at all with the exception of a handfull of proper nouns.

I did misinterpret you, though -- I had thought you were bemoaning the AVP script as not looking very good at all. I certainly can understand that fans would have wanted or expected something, and then not gotten it; my own wants and expectations of the Prequel Trilogy to Star Wars has been sorely let down, for example.

I apologize if I misinterpreted things, I get a little antsy around the term hack, since it often is a personal opinion yet given as testamental truth. I agree that a few of the very early novels could have bene better (but then aliens was *extremely* formulaic, as was alien and don't get me started on the first predator, which was total rubish talent wise). I also hate the starwars stuff dark horse has done, and most critics have agreed, but they also agree that the aliens stuff darkhorse has done has been hands down excellent in capturing the feel and action of the second movie. I also have done my research,a s well as spent most of the past almost 20 years reading about this or that concerning the two storylines. We just have two differnet opinions on this subject and I respect that. Hope we can both shake shands and move on.

so..how bout politics? ;P