Awaken - Worth a CR Bump?

[Dragonwriter]

I've been working on an animal-centric campaign (primarily dinosaurs, some dire animals) and was planning for there to be Awakened ones later on, and with class levels. It's hard estimating by myself, so I thought I would turn to the wonderful people here for some assistance.

Using the Awaken spell (on animals, not plants. Not using awakened trees), it gives the subject 3d6 Int, +1d3 Cha, +2 HD and turns it into a Magical Beast. Would this increase the CR of the subject, in your opinions? If so, how much? And if not, would you please explain why?

 

[s-dub]

Probably worth at least CR, for the extra two hit dice, larger hit dice size, and better BAB.

Depending on the hit dice of the animal, it may be worth more.

 

[Runestar]

Awaken does not change its HD from animal to magical beast, just its subtype. So you still use 3/4 bab and d8s. Not sure if the extra HD boosts size though (since it is not from natural advancement).

Of course, you are free to revise its stats, though this will probably boost its cr a lot more (especially if the animal in question already has a ton of HD to begin with).

The only important factor here is the extra HD, which isn't worth enough to warrant a full cr increase. Maybe an ad-hoc xp increase instead of 10-20%, considering that +1cr means the animal is 50% more challenging.

 

[s-dub]

Ahh good point, I didn't see the augmented segment there.

So it would gain darkvision 60, but HD and Bab would stay the same from looking at it again.

I'm with Runestar the two extra HD are probably not worth a CR bump if the animal has a decent number of HD to begin with.

 

[Dragonwriter]

Okay, thanks guys.

But, if you say "decent number of HD to begin with", then what would you say is a decent amount? 5 or more?

I wasn't expecting the HD to boost size, since, as you said Runestar, it's bonus and not advancement HD. I would just have to factor in the additions from extra HD, like BAB, saves, HP...

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Also, "bear" in mind that if you give a creature class levels, it gets the elite array for ability scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) rather than the default (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10) Note that the elite array, in itself, doesn't increase the CR; it's a side benefit of the class levels, which do increase the CR.

Finally, not to give you "paws," you might want to review the rules for associated classes. Giving a grizzly 5 levels of fighter will add more to its raw power (and thus CR) than giving it 5 levels of sorcerer. Associated and non-associated classes are rules that, unfortunately, really highlight how much CR calculation is, at "beast," an educated guess.

(I'm so very, very sorry.)

 

[Dragonwriter]

First off, great puns. I don't mind in the slightest and even measure my own by how many groans I get from them.

And, thanks. I hadn't considered the elite array. I was going over the associated and non-associated classes. Naturally, most of the martial classes net a +1 CR per level. And most of the ones I would give caster levels (mostly Sor, a few Drd or Clr) would be ones that generally have fewer HD and have less focus on raw power.

A lot of the dinosaurs I'm using I got off of an old thread in the Creature Homebrews section, and there are quite a few with only a couple HD, and they make good caster candidates, such as the compsagnathus (little dinos that attack the girl in the opening of Jurassic Park: The Lost World if you're not sure to what I refer).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

the compsagnathus

Oh, I know them well. My ex-girlfriend and I used to refer to them as "punkasauruses" when we played the ancient "Jurassic Park" Sega Genesis game.

I forgot to mention, anent the elite array, that I'm not at all sure how it would, or should, interact with the randomly generated mental scores from awaken. I suppose as long as you're consistent, it shouldn't matter much.

 

[almagest]

I would likely increase the CR of a monster by 1 when awakened, primarily due to the Int increase, and the increased ability to plan and use tactics this boost gives.

CR+1: Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that improve combat effectiveness in a minor way

Note that the elite array, in itself, doesn't increase the CR; it's a side benefit of the class levels, which do increase the CR.

Incorrect.

+1 CR: Monster’s ability scores based on elite array (Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Incorrect.

Um, no. You need to reread.

I said, "Note that the elite array, in itself, doesn't increase the CR; it's a side benefit of the class levels, which do increase the CR."

Then you posted the exact rule I was paraphrasing:

"+1 CR: Monster’s ability scores based on elite array (Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array.)"

Which is what I said.