Awareness and Surprise

[Vegepygmy]

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[kaomera]

I have one question: How was the party able to sense the monster? From the situation you have described, I feel that there should have in fact been a surprise round, in which the monster and any PCs that where able to detect it before it entered the room would be able to act normally. Assuming that any PCs where able to detect the monster as it entered the room, they ought to then get their readied actions (to make ranged attacks at the monster). In any case, the PCs and monster should both be flat-footed until they begin their first actual actions; in the monster's case that would be when it enters the room, in the PCs case it would be either in the surprise round or the first normal round of combat. Of course, if the PCs had some way of knowing that the monster was about to appear (specifically at that point in time, not in a general "we think he's on his way here" kind of way) then there's no surprise round at all.

A separate issue is that the players should not have announced their intention to attack. Aside from the fact that they had readied actions, until initiative is rolled they should not be allowed to declare actions, this only ever (IMHO) leads to arguments. At most I would have allowed the PCs to yell out "I'm gonna attack!" to one another, but given that the PCs are waiting in ambush I'd tend to assume that they are smart enough to keep quiet, even if he players aren't. I feel pretty strongly that letting players "declare ahead" and then penalizing them because the situation has changed is (in 3.x at least) bad form.

 

[takasi]

Well, I have nothing to comment on at this point about Vegepygmy's situation, but I do have another situation that's related to awareness...

The PCs enter the atrium of a mansion and see two sets of stairs heading upstairs and a hallway underneath the staircase. One of the PCs has scent and can tell that there is "something" nearby but can't pinpoint the location.

The enemies are downstairs around the corner of the hallway. They hear the PCs and are waiting to attack if anything comes around the corner.

The party splits up and the character with scent goes upstairs.

A party member downstairs goes around the corner of the hallway and the enemies attack.

If you roll initiative and the party member with scent (and on the second floor) goes first, what can he legally do? He has no idea that anything has changed from his perspective.

What about the other party members downstairs who have not gone around the corner?

I asked for initiative and gave a surprise round to the enemies and the party member who went around the corner and saw the enemy. The party member with scent believes he should have been able to act during the surprise round. What is your opinion?

 

[ValhallaGH]

The party member with scent believes he should have been able to act during the surprise round. What is your opinion?

That he should be grateful for being allowed to interact in the combat at all.

Seriously, being upstairs means he should have had to make a listen check to even know that anything was wrong. That you were kind enough to allow him to leap down and engage the enemy in the first full round was an act of pure generosity on your part.
Don't let people mistake generosity for weakness.

 

[Kalshane]

That he should be grateful for being allowed to interact in the combat at all.

Yup. Until he's actually aware of an on-going battle, he shouldn't even be rolling initiative. Once he makes the neccessary listen check or is otherwise alerted by his allies, then he makes his roll and begins acting on that count.

 

[Seffbasilisk]

Yup. Until he's actually aware of an on-going battle, he shouldn't even be rolling initiative. Once he makes the neccessary listen check or is otherwise alerted by his allies, then he makes his roll and begins acting on that count.

Yup. And until then he can keep on exploring or whatever, but isn't aware of combat and any combat that comes his way he's flatfooted for a surprise round of.

 

[MarkB]

EDIT: In which case, the monster could enter the room, move about (up to its normal speed), pinpoint the first PC it came within 5 feet of, and attack him--all before the PCs "have any chance" to attack it? (Assume for purposes of this answer that the monster has total cover from the PCs until it enters the room.)

One possible alternative is to use the variant rule that all combats begin with a 'surprise' round regardless of awareness, because it takes a full round of combat for everyone to get 'up to speed'.

That would favour the ambushers in this case, because the monster could not move into the room, go round corners and then attack all in one standard action, whereas the ambushers would each be able to break cover with a free action or 5-foot step and still attack the creature.

 

[takasi]

I think FranktheDM did a good job of sticking to the rules, so I'm going to expand on what he had to say:

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The raw for scent does not mention anything about awareness. It says you detect another creature's presence. Detect evil also does this. However, you cannot interact with a creature unless you can pinpoint it's location and I think that's key to this discussion.

The DMG (page 23) clearly covers the situation where both sides are aware but cannot interact. Initiative is NOT CALLED until both sides can interact. Round by round actions are recorded but combat has not yet initiated (no readied actions, delay, etc).

So again, here's another example. A paladin casts detect evil. He knows there is an evil presence, and announces it to the party. He is stunned by its overwhelming aura and cannot pinpoint the location. The party then discovers a hole in the room and the paladin begins to climb down to investigate. Meanwhile, in the room an invisible creature emerges to stab one of the party members.

Should you call for initiative as soon as the paladin detects evil? No, because (like scent) he cannot interact with the creature. He has no way of pinpointing the movement or location of the invisible creature.

Should there be a surprise round when the invisible creature strikes? Yes, because even though the party detected a creature's presence they were not aware of its location and could not interact with it.

Is this ruling accurate following the rules as written?

 

[takasi]

Does anyone have an opinion on the paladin and the invisible creature scenario?

 

[mikebr99]

So again, here's another example. A paladin casts detect evil. He knows there is an evil presence, and announces it to the party. He is stunned by its overwhelming aura and cannot pinpoint the location. The party then discovers a hole in the room and the paladin begins to climb down to investigate. Meanwhile, in the room an invisible creature emerges to stab one of the party members.

Let's stop right there... in the 2nd round of the paladin detecting evil, he gets stunned, so he knows that it is either an 11th+ evil Cleric or worse (see detect evil chart)... the paladin doesn't go berzerk when he becomes unstunned... screaming that there is something very powerful and invisible within the 60' cone!???

Should you call for initiative as soon as the paladin detects evil? No, because (like scent) he cannot interact with the creature. He has no way of pinpointing the movement or location of the invisible creature.

detect evil doesn't say that you can't get your 3rd round of detect evil off once you have been stunned... so he can pinpoint the evil... and should if he is any kind of "paladin" at all...

Should there be a surprise round when the invisible creature strikes? Yes, because even though the party detected a creature's presence they were not aware of its location and could not interact with it.

Is this ruling accurate following the rules as written?

Combat should start as soon as the Paladin detects an evil presence... he would automaticaly get into combat mode, and let his party member know.

Mike