Awareness and Surprise

[MarkB]

detect evil doesn't say that you can't get your 3rd round of detect evil off once you have been stunned

Actually, it does. It says you're stunned for one round and the spell ends.

 

[mikebr99]

Actually, it does. It says you're stunned for one round and the spell ends.

ahhh... yes... you are right Mark.

But my point still stands... that any party worth their weight would get ready for immediate combat by an invisible target, once soemone detects evil that they cannot see, within the 60' cone... ie. roll init, and start making spot/listen checks.

Mike

 

[takasi]

ahhh... yes... you are right Mark.

But my point still stands... that any party worth their weight would get ready for immediate combat by an invisible target, once soemone detects evil that they cannot see, within the 60' cone... ie. roll init, and start making spot/listen checks.

Mike

In the DMG it clearly says that you should't roll initiative if both sides cannot or will not interact.

You're assuming the party isn't doing their job, but let's say they do. They try to spot, listen and otherwise pinpoint a creature's location but can't. After some time the paladin decides to go down the hole, assuming the creature is in there. Meanwhile up top the invisible creature finally interacts and tries to stab one of the party members.

Even though the paladin alerted the party (just as the party member with scent would) the fact that there was no chance for interaction postpones initiative and allows for surprise.

 

[mikebr99]

In the DMG it clearly says that you should't roll initiative if both sides cannot or will not interact.

You're assuming the party isn't doing their job, but let's say they do. They try to spot, listen and otherwise pinpoint a creature's location but can't. After some time the paladin decides to go down the hole, assuming the creature is in there. Meanwhile up top the invisible creature finally interacts and tries to stab one of the party members.

Even though the paladin alerted the party (just as the party member with scent would) the fact that there was no chance for interaction postpones initiative and allows for surprise.

Detect evil is a 60ft. cone... it'll be pretty easy for the paladin to find out... with repeating the one round use that the 'overwhelming evil' is somewhere in the room, and not in the hole.

What level of PC's are you suggesting would be so nonchalant about a highly hidden, overwhelming evil within 60ft. of them?

Mike

 

[takasi]

Let's say he pops it off again and finds an evil presence down the hole too, which is why he goes into the hole. There's still a chance that something is in the room, but you're missing the point. What if it was scent? And for, whatever reason, they can't pinpoint the enemy?

Regardless of how efficient the paladin was in failing to pinpoint the enemy (let's say it's a cleric who popped off the spell and can't do it again) do you disagree with this ruling? Why?

 

[mikebr99]

Let's say he pops it off again and finds an evil presence down the hole too, which is why he goes into the hole. There's still a chance that something is in the room, but you're missing the point. What if it was scent? And for, whatever reason, they can't pinpoint the enemy?

Regardless of how efficient the paladin was in failing to pinpoint the enemy (let's say it's a cleric who popped off the spell and can't do it again) do you disagree with this ruling? Why?

Because the party just found out that there is an 11th+ Cleric or 21st+ HD Undead or a 51st+ Evil Creature or 21st+ evil magic item or spell (CL)... in the immediate vicinity!

Who would not have their guard up... expecting something nasty... when that little bombshell was just passed back from the Paladin? The party expects to attack and be attacked... by something.

True seeings... see invis... glitterdust... AoE spells... other detect spells... good spotters... throwing sand... I'm going to find the thing, even if I provoke it to attack.

I'm not leavnig that room until the entire 60ft. cone has been searched, and verified that it's only a "lingering" aura of something that happened a few days ago, and not a creature.

Mike

 

[takasi]

True seeings... see invis... glitterdust... AoE spells... other detect spells... good spotters... throwing sand... I'm going to find the thing, even if I provoke it to attack.

For the sake of the discussion let's say it's a 1st level party with no sand.

Either way, initiative is not called until there is interaction.

Here's another scenario:

A party is parlaying with a tribe of hobgoblins. Using a hidden manifestation, the party psion attempts to charm the hobgoblin leader *. When is initiative called for? As soon as there is an agressive interaction (spellcasting). Is there a surprise round? Yes, you should include a surprise round whenever there are participants who cannot pinpoint an agressive interaction.

*You could also substitute the psion for a wizard and the manifestation for a stilled, silent cloudkill.

 

[KarinsDad]

Even though the paladin alerted the party (just as the party member with scent would) the fact that there was no chance for interaction postpones initiative and allows for surprise.

I disagree.

If both sides are aware of each other, there is no surprise.

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

The rolling of initiatives determines order of actions.

In the OP scenario, both sides were aware. The instant PCs start "popping out", the DM should state "roll initiatives".

Whomever wins, wins. Whomever loses is still hidden. Everyone is still flatfooted until their initiative comes up.

There is a difference though between being flatfooted and being surprised.


The problem with adding a surprise round is that the side that is surprised can get doubly screwed, even though they are aware of the other side. The other side can win initiatve and get two standard actions off each before the other side can react.

There is nothing wrong with this if one side is unaware, but not if they are aware.

 

[takasi]

If both sides are aware of each other, there is no surprise.

What is awareness? The text is defined above. Detecting the general presence is not specifically defined as "awareness". Nothing in the RAW directly links sensing a presence with awareness. If you are unaware of a creature's location then there is surprise when it attacks regardless of whether you sense its "general presence" or not.

In the OP scenario, both sides were aware. The instant PCs start "popping out", the DM should state "roll initiatives".

What are you basing this on? Initiative should not be rolled, per the DMG, unless there is interaction not awareness. If there is awareness then you record actions round by round but you do not call for initiative yet (page 23).

Whomever wins, wins. Whomever loses is still hidden.

If they are hidden there is no interaction, therefore initiative should not be rolled yet. If one side can interact and the other cannot then there is surprise. If one side can act and does and the other cannot because they could not pinpoint the other's location before they act then there is surprise.

The problem with adding a surprise round is that the side that is surprised can get doubly screwed, even though they are aware of the other side. The other side can win initiatve and get two standard actions off each before the other side can react.

They are not doubly screwed for one reason, they are doubly screwed for two. They do not get a surprise round because they did not pinpoint the enemy before it attacked. That is a penalty. They are also penalized if they fail initiative. Why should they only be screwed once for failing twice?

Detect evil and scent can provide many opportunities in game to prepare for combat. Are you saying they grant full immunity to surprise?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Detecting the general presence is not specifically defined as "awareness". Nothing in the RAW directly links sensing a presence with awareness. If you are unaware of a creature's location then there is surprise when it attacks regardless of whether you sense its "general presence" or not.

From the rules for invisibility:

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

Let's say I make a DC20 check to notice the presence of an invisible creature, but not the DC40 required to pinpoint it. I know something is there, but I don't know where.

Am I aware?

Let's say I swing my sword at that space there, guess right, beat the miss chance, and beat his AC, dealing damage.

Should I have been allowed to make that attack before initiative is rolled?

-Hyp.