Awareness and Surprise

[takasi]

Should I have been allowed to make that attack before initiative is rolled?

If the DM knows you will hit (by confirming the attack) then initiative would be rolled. Otherwise round by round actions would be tracked secretly by the DM.

Yes, that makes attacks against invisible creatures very difficult (protentially granting them multiple opportunities to get surprise rounds if they are alone) but the alternative is to give near complete immunity of surprise by picking up scent or detect spells which is incredibly easy to do. Also with the alternative you get into situations where the player who wins initiative but cannot interact (because he is upstairs or whatever) ends up metagaming (delaying when he would normally keep moving).

Now that I've given it more thought I can concede that the OP could be right, although it pains me very much because one of my players has scent. He's also a metagaming, powergaming rules lawyer who questions every decision I make (including this one).

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the DM knows you will hit (by confirming the attack) then initiative would be rolled.

But if the invisible creature wins that initiative roll, then shouldn't he get a surprise round since he's acting before the character has pinpointed him, under your reading of 'awareness'?

Resulting in the character starting to swing his sword, but the invisible creature getting a standard action and a normal round of actions (surprise, plus winning initiative in the first round) before the attack is resolved?

If initiative is rolled because the DM knows you will hit, and the creature wins and moves to a different square, then the attack will miss, and the DM shouldn't have called for initiative after all?

... but the alternative is to give near complete immunity of surprise by picking up scent or detect spells which is incredibly easy to do.

Well, that makes more sense to me.

There's a big difference between "Eek! An invisible ogre attacked me!" and "Hmm - I can smell an invisible ogre. Eek! An invisible ogre attacked me!" as regards how surprising the attack is!

Also with the alternative you get into situations where the player who wins initiative but cannot interact (because he is upstairs or whatever) ends up metagaming (delaying when he would normally keep moving).

That's a player issue, not a rules issue, though.

-Hyp.

 

[kaomera]

Should I have been allowed to make that attack before initiative is rolled?

IMHO, yes. If you have not made that DC 40 Spot check to pinpoint the foe, you're just swinging wildly. If the invisible enemy is going to allow you to do so when you are right in front of it (within 5') without deciding to force the situation itself (by attacking), then you may make your attack before normal initiative. And if you hit you, at least, are no longer surprised. Choosing not to act is the same (in this case) as forfeiting it's action in the surprise round; the opponent should not (IMHO) get the added advantage of getting to see what the initiative count is going to look like before deciding how to react to the PCs, and the PC is still just swinging wildly, not making a deliberate attack against a specific opponent. It's like stepping on a pressure plate and triggering a trap... Those scything blades don't roll initiative, and you don't get a chance to sunder them before they can make their attack (at least IMC).

Now, if the enemy sees you walk up to within 5' (and can't move away without giving away it's location), it may well decide to strike you first. That would call for a surprise round, roll initiative, Listen check to react, all that good stuff.

Let's say that you've got a situation where a Paladin has detected overwhelming Evil within 60'. He's stunned or a moment and when the commotion ends he warns the rest of the party. The guy in the chain shirt with the morningstar says "I shall cast a spell to see if I cannot pinpoint the fiend!", chants a bit, does his little dance, and >whoosh< puts his Fireball (with a Sudden Widen, since he's a 15th-level Warmage) down the corridor. (Assume that the enemy has no reason to suspect this guy isn't a Cleric casting another Detect Magic, and for whatever nefarious reason isn't just attacking immediately.) Now who gets the surprise round?

I'd say no-one does. The PCs have not located their opponent, and the enemy is not choosing to make an attack against them.

 

[KarinsDad]

What is awareness? The text is defined above. Detecting the general presence is not specifically defined as "awareness". Nothing in the RAW directly links sensing a presence with awareness. If you are unaware of a creature's location then there is surprise when it attacks regardless of whether you sense its "general presence" or not.

You should reread RAW before making this claim.

This concept of having to pinpoint your target to be aware of him is NOT what the DMG states concerning awareness.

DMG page 24

The Naga example illustrates that additional enemies are aware in the case that they heard sounds of combat. It does not state that they are aware because they saw the combatants. The unaware new combatant Orcs stumbled in and did not hear the combat.

From this, it is obvious that "aware" means aware, not line of sight. In the OP's case, aware means scenting the enemies.

Scenting, hearing, making a DC 20 Spot for Invisible creatures, etc. All of these are not line of sight, they are awareness.

Yes, RAW specifically disagrees with your "Detecting the general presence is not specifically defined as "awareness"." claim.

What are you basing this on? Initiative should not be rolled, per the DMG, unless there is interaction not awareness. If there is awareness then you record actions round by round but you do not call for initiative yet (page 23).

I am basing it on the same text you are reading on page 23. In the OP, both sides are aware and COULD interact. They were in close range (i.e. scent range) and nothing stops the monster from walking to a location (Move Action) where it could clearly see an opponent and (Standard Action) attacking him. If the monster wins initiative and does not move to a place where it can attack (maybe it readies an action), this does not stop the PCs from attacking on their initiatives.

The monster should be knowledgeable that his scent ability has a more or less specific range and can act accordingly.

On page 22, it states that if the aware characters alert the other side, then both sides are aware. In the OP, the monster got the scent of the PCs and thus became aware. It was alerted by the scent of the PCs.


Where is your RAW basis for "Detecting the general presence is not specifically defined as "awareness"." claim? RAW states the opposite.

Hyp's Invisibility quotes also disagree with your claim.

 

[moritheil]

I take issue with the above assertion that the PCs can consciously "enter combat mode." Combat rules are an artifical construct - the distinction between combat and noncombat is part of the mechanics of the game. Unless you're running a 4th-wall-breaking campaign (aka one in which metagaming is encouraged) there should be no awareness that anything is different in combat just because the rules the DM uses to keep track of things are different.