Away from my books, have an AoO question

[kreynolds]

Book canon - is one per opponent.

I disagree, not only with your viewpoint, but also with your interpretation of "book canon". You can't just read the Combat Reflexes section and make a ruling. Read the "making attacks of opportunity" section, or whatever it's called, on page 122 of the PHB. That, coupled with the Combat Reflexes description, brings me to my viewpoint. You may not see it my way after reading it, but that's ok. I just wanted to make sure you checked it out in case you hadn't yet.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

As far as I understand the rules, your average combatant gets one AoO per round. He can make it against the first enemy that provokes an AoO, or he can wait (maybe losing his chance for making an AoO for this round altogether).

With Combat Reflexes, you get additional AoO (equal dex mod). But you can't target the same enemy with more than one AoO per round. So if you have 4 AoO's (with dex 16 or 17), you must make them against 4 different enemies. If you stand right before an archer and she shoots three times that round, you can still make only one AoO against her, even though she provokes an AoO three times.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree, not only with your viewpoint, but also with your interpretation of "book canon". You can't just read the Combat Reflexes section and make a ruling. Read the "making attacks of opportunity" section, or whatever it's called, on page 122 of the PHB. That, coupled with the Combat Reflexes description, brings me to my viewpoint. You may not see it my way after reading it, but that's ok. I just wanted to make sure you checked it out in case you hadn't yet.

Well, after reading the relevant passages, I too think you are mistaken in your interpretation kreynolds.

There has been a lot of discussion on this. Although I agree that your interpretation is what SHOULD happen for Combat Reflexes (otherwise, that feat is considerably less useful), there is a difference between what should happen and what the book states in this case. IMO.

"You still only make one attack of opportunity per enemy" and "This feat does not, however, let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity" seems clear to me.

You get one per opportunity. You get one per enemy. Per round.

 

[kreynolds]

"You still only make one attack of opportunity per enemy" and "This feat does not, however, let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity" seems clear to me.

Dude, you just quoted my case. It's right there in black and white:

1) You still only make one attack of opportunity per enemy. This part of the Combat Reflexes description is addressing the example of the 4 goblins, clarifying that you can only hit each of the 3 goblins once because they only provoked 1 attack of opportunity. That specific text applies only to that example.

2) Your second quote is taken from "Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity", and this section expands on Combat Reflexes. Your quote was "This feat does not, however, let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity".

I don't see how this could be confusing or misleading at all. As I stated before, you can't just read one section and make a ruling. You have to read them both. You just quoted both of the relevant sections, and when you read them, one right after another, my stance makes sense. If anything in the PH is misleading, it is the Combat Reflexes feat description, as it is further explained on page 122.

 

[KarinsDad]

Dude, you just quoted my case. It's right there in black and white:

1) You still only make one attack of opportunity per enemy. This part of the Combat Reflexes description is addressing the example of the 4 goblins, clarifying that you can only hit each of the 3 goblins once because they only provoked 1 attack of opportunity. That specific text applies only to that example.

Says you.

I think since it is the only line, that it applies to all examples. In fact, the SRD does not have the goblin example listed in it at all.

I think one AoO per enemy means one AoO per enemy. I do not think one AoO per enemy means that given another opportunity, that you can get a second attack on that one enemy.

One per enemy means one per enemy. It does not mean one per enemy per opportunity.

I think that if they had meant one AoO per enemy per opportunity, they would have called it out. They did not do so.

By default, it if does not say one AoO per enemy per opportunity, it must mean one AoO per enemy per round since the additional AoOs allowed by Combat Reflexes are per round.

2) Your second quote is taken from "Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity", and this section expands on Combat Reflexes. Your quote was "This feat does not, however, let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity".

I don't see how this could be confusing or misleading at all. As I stated before, you can't just read one section and make a ruling. You have to read them both. You just quoted both of the relevant sections, and when you read them, one right after another, my stance makes sense. If anything in the PH is misleading, it is the Combat Reflexes feat description, as it is further explained on page 122.

You are inferring that the second quote "one AoO per opportunity" means that if given multiple opportunities against the same enemy, that you can take multiple AoOs.

That is an assumption on your part, not supported by the text.

You have to also, as you point out, read the other section where it states "one AoO per enemy".


It is all a matter of interpretation. You think that since the second sentence exists at all on page 122, that it must imply "one AoO per enemy per opportunity".

I think that they put that sentence in there as additional supportive information. If you just were reading the Combat Reflexes information on page 122 and did not refer back to page 80 and they did NOT have that sentence in there, someone might think that they could get multiple AoOs in a single opportunity.


You are interpreting due to the quote on page 122, inferring that it means more than it says. I am doing a literal interpretation of both "one AoO per enemy" and “one AoO per opportunity”.

Btw, the Sage has agreed with me. Monty has agreed with you.

I do, as I stated before, think that it should be as per your interpretation, I just do not think your interpretation is a literal one, Dude.

 

[Valicor]

The handbook Deities and Demigods further proves that you can only make one attack of opportunity, per person in a round, with the divine Battle Mastery

Quote: "The deity can make an unlimmited number of attacks of opportunity in one round. (The deity still can't make more than one attack or opportunity agaisnt a single oppnent in a round.)"
Written in Deities and demigods, by Wizards of the Coast.

So if not even the Gods can make more then one attack of opportunity ahgaisnt someone per round, i think its safe to say no one else can either.

 

[kreynolds]

...I just do not think your interpretation is a literal one...

Fair enough. I'll drop the stick and leave the dead horse alone.

 

[IceBear]

Of course many people house rule it that it is one AoO per opportunity in order to beef up the Combat Reflexes feat. Also, since Monte (or someone like him) stated that he would allow that interpretation, it gives some credibility to using that house rule.

For me, I just didn't like the idea that you could attack the goblin on your left drinking a potion and then attack the one on your right for moving, but you couldn't attack one goblin who moved and then drank a potion (assuming he was still in your threat range).

Before I start getting counter arguments back, I've heard them all before. I freely admit that this is a house rule and it does make Combat Reflexes more powerful, but it works for me.

IceBear