Back in the day...

[buzz]

Out of curiosity, diaglo, could you give me an idea of how you run your OD&D games? I mean, if two PC's have the same Dex, say, but one of them is a Fighting Man that likens themself a shining knight, while the other is a Fighting man who likens themself a rougish scallywag, who has the better chance to pick a pocket, and how would you adjudicate it? If it's just a 3d6 v. Dex roll, aren't their chances identical?

Just curious how you handle things like this. Depending on your answer, I might just break out my copies of the LBB's.

 

[diaglo]

Good point diaglo, but the key there is that the referee is supposed to be impartial. Unfortunately, a lot of referees, especially the ones from back in the day, see the PCs as enemies to be defeated, and that's usually attributed to the wargaming mentality more prevalent in the old days. If you've got a referee who's goal is to TPK all the time, having no rules and all DM calls is NOT going to be fun for the players.

truth be told i haven't kept up with wargaming much since starting OD&D.

but the referee from my wargaming days was impartial. he was just that... a referee. the sides in the conflict were players. player vs. player. with an impartial referee.

 

[diaglo]

Out of curiosity, diaglo, could you give me an idea of how you run your OD&D games? I mean, if two PC's have the same Dex, say, but one of them is a Fighting Man that likens themself a shining knight, while the other is a Fighting man who likens themself a rougish scallywag, who has the better chance to pick a pocket, and how would you adjudicate it? If it's just a 3d6 v. Dex roll, aren't their chances identical?

give me more information.

what are you wearing?

who is your victim? do you know this person? do they know you? are they friendly? or suspicious of you? are they distracted? have they been robbed before?

what level are you? how much training have you put into being able to pick pockets? is this an untrained attempt?

what is the lighting like? or weather? indoors in a hollow cave or outdoors under the sky?

 

[WizarDru]

give me more information.

what are you wearing?

who is your victim? do you know this person? do they know you? are they friendly? or suspicious of you? are they distracted? have they been robbed before?

what level are you? how much training have you put into being able to pick pockets? is this an untrained attempt?

what is the lighting like? or weather? indoors in a hollow cave or outdoors under the sky?

Almost all of those don't address the question buzz was asking, do they? These are all environmental factors that having nothing to do with the men involved, except for the 'how much training' question. I would assume the two characters levels are equal.

 

[diaglo]

Almost all of those don't address the question buzz was asking, do they? These are all environmental factors that having nothing to do with the men involved, except for the 'how much training' question. I would assume the two characters levels are equal.

from a player standpoint... would you could you in the rain?

sam i am.

a rascal might. but would a knight.

 

[Numion]

from a player standpoint... would you could you in the rain?

sam i am.

a rascal might. but would a knight.

Um .. let's say it didn't rain for either .. they were in equal situations, both had no practice in pickpocketing

 

[diaglo]

Um .. let's say it didn't rain for either .. they were in equal situations, both had no practice in pickpocketing

and the rest of the story?

does the mark know you? does he trust you?

so i'll assume besides dex all their stats are the same. and i'll have to assume they are both wearing the same clothes. and i'll have to assume they both have the same reaction to the mark. and i'll have to assume they look identical. no difference in hgt, wgt, age, places to hide objects.

and i'll have to assume they have the same alignment. and i'll have to assume that both players want to try the same thing... but i'll have to change the situation so that the victim is identical but different since i'll assume neither has been robbed before and like the PCs looks, acts, dresses, etc... all the same.

is that what you are getting at?

 

[diaglo]

basically what i tell the player is after he has stated his preference and asked questions about consequences is:

roll the dice or not.

had a similar thing happen recently in the campaign i'm currently running.

an assassin in the campaign tried to pickpocket the magic-user in the party.

i told him. firstly, he wasn't sure exactly where the item was he wanted. the magic-user had many pouches or places the object could be. and secondly, at no time during the 5 or so minutes they were alone did he have an opportunity to get a clean grab without the magic-user noticing. he would be the primary and only suspect if he did succeed. he therefore, didn't roll as he didn't attempt the pp.

 

[buzz]

So, diaglo, does it ultimately come down to a Dex roll, but the decision as to whether the roll is allowed at all depend on the factors you describe above?

Anyway, as per your request...

Penelope Paladin is a 5th-level Fighting Man with Dex 15. Her AL is Lawful (they didn't do Good or Evil yet in OD&D, right?). She is a dedicated knight and a very moral person. Assume she is presented with the opportunity (lighting, situation) to pick the pocket of a vile moneychanger who has refused to give back a pouch of money he collected from an orphanage on dubious terms. She goes for it, feeling the good of getting the money back to the orphans outweights the petty crime of theft from a person she considers "evil".

Randy Rogue is a 5th-level Fighting Man with Dex 15. His AL is Neutral. He's been a street urchin most his life and has had to survive by his wits. Sometimes he'll take honest work, sometimes he'll be happy to steal. He sees the local moneychanger has just collected a hefty pouch of coins. Opportunity (lighting, situation) presents itself, and Randy tries to pick the moneychanger's pocket.

The moneychanger is a John Doe, 0-level whatever.

Which PC has the better chance? Does Randy have the edge because he's streetwise, or does Penelope because she feels right is on her side? Do both boil down to 3d6 vs. Dex? Are modifiers involved?

Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[diaglo]

So, diaglo, does it ultimately come down to a Dex roll, but the decision as to whether the roll is allowed at all depend on the factors you describe above?

Anyway, as per your request...

Penelope Paladin is a 5th-level Fighting Man with Dex 15. Her AL is Lawful (they didn't do Good or Evil yet in OD&D, right?). She is a dedicated knight and a very moral person. Assume she is presented with the opportunity (lighting, situation) to pick the pocket of a vile moneychanger who has refused to give back a pouch of money he collected from an orphanage on dubious terms. She goes for it, feeling the good of getting the money back to the orphans outweights the petty crime of theft from a person she considers "evil".

Randy Rogue is a 5th-level Fighting Man with Dex 15. His AL is Neutral. He's been a street urchin most his life and has had to survive by his wits. Sometimes he'll take honest work, sometimes he'll be happy to steal. He sees the local moneychanger has just collected a hefty pouch of coins. Opportunity (lighting, situation) presents itself, and Randy tries to pick the moneychanger's pocket.

The moneychanger is a John Doe, 0-level whatever.

Which PC has the better chance? Does Randy have the edge because he's streetwise, or does Penelope because she feels right is on her side? Do both boil down to 3d6 vs. Dex? Are modifiers involved?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Penelope Paladin although presented with the situation and with the right in her mind will have a tougher time. She hasn't been around those who steal or knows the ins and outs of it. she will suffer a circumstance penalty. she too is the trusting and righteous sort. she wears her motives and alignment on her sleeve. she gives away the attempt more easily. on the other hand John Doe is used to people trying to take what he has just "earned"... just not from someone so righteous. his guard is a little down. not enough for a bonus tho. her armor and weapons clang a bit and make noise which draws John's attention to the theft also. she makes the attempt anyway.

Randy Rogue is a creature of habit. he sees the opportunity and takes it. but not directly. he waits for the chance for the moneychanger to be distracted. this is due to his training and his survivalist nature. a bonus. he wears lighter armor that makes little to no noise. he knows that once this job is done he will need to move on for he is surely the most likely suspect.

roll the dice...